Author Topic: Give it 5 minutes...  (Read 1111 times)

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2002, 09:54:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target


Well Steve, (and I'm laughing while I write this) I suppose he could have said the exact words that sreenwriter wrote. The chances of that being true are just a little better than the proverbial million monkeys typing Shakespeare. But you go ahead and believe whatever you want. :rolleyes:


What part of "Thus it is impossible (without new evidence) to either confirm or deny the validity of the speech." did you not understand? Basically what it all comes down to is what you believe, the sources give no answer either way.

And note if you will that my version of the speech does not start like any of the above...thus there must exist yet another version. I'm saying that it is from the 1932 pamphlet, but you claim that you know my sources better than me  

This is rapidly turning into another "no one will ever know how many people were killed in Dresden"-argument, and I have had enough of those.

Shut up or keep writing, your call, but to me this discussion is over.

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2002, 10:24:11 AM »
sigh....

The only difference between the speech you posted and Mr. Perry's screenplay is that you left out the opening line. Other than that they are identical.

Now are you going to attempt to seek the facts or are you just going to cut and paste a response like your last one?

Quote
What part of "Thus it is impossible (without new evidence) to either confirm or deny the validity of the speech." did you not understand? Basically what it all comes down to is what you believe, the sources give no answer either way.


Are you dense? The validity of Seattle's speech is not in question. NOONE knows what Seattle really said! We DO KNOW who wrote the version you posted.... sheesh! Wake up Steve.

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2002, 10:25:49 AM »
Shut up or keep writing, your call, but to me this discussion is over.

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2002, 10:42:37 AM »
lol

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2002, 12:42:27 PM »
lol yeah I know

Offline -dead-

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1102
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2002, 01:28:06 PM »
Here's the Smith "original" version

Four Wagons West

by Roberta Frye Watt
Binsford & Mort, Portland Oregon, 1934
The text was produced by one "Dr." Smith, an early settler in Washington State, who took notes as Seattle spoke in the Suquamish dialect of central Puget sound Salish (Lushootseed), and created this text in English from those notes. Smith insisted that his version "contained none of the grace and elegance of the original." The last two sentences of the text here given have been considered for many years to have been part of the original, but are now known to have been added by an early 20th century historian and ethnographic writer, A.C. Ballard.

There are many versions and excerpts from this text, including a wholly fraudulent version [known as the Ted Perry text] mentioning buffalo and the interconnectedness of all life which was written by a Hollywood screenwriter in the late 70's and which has gained wide currency. The bogus version has been quoted by individuals as prominent and diverse as former U.S. President Bush and Joseph Campbell.

At the time this speech was made it was commonly believed by whites and as well by many Indians that Native Americans would inevitably become extinct.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

authentic text of Chief Seattle's Treaty Oration - 1854
[Originally published in the Seattle Sunday Star, Oct. 29 1887]

Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume - good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.

There was a time when our people covered the land as the waves of a wind-ruffled sea cover its shell-paved floor, but that time long since passed away with the greatness of tribes that are now but a mournful memory. I will not dwell on, nor mourn over, our untimely decay, nor reproach my paleface brothers with hastening it, as we too may have been somewhat to blame.

Youth is impulsive. When our young men grow angry at some real or imaginary wrong, and disfigure their faces with black paint, it denotes that their hearts are black, and that they are often cruel and relentless, and our old men and old women are unable to restrain them. Thus it has ever been. Thus it was when the white man began to push our forefathers ever westward. But let us hope that the hostilities between us may never return. We would have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Revenge by young men is considered gain, even at the cost of their own lives, but old [men who stay] at home in times of war, and mothers who have sons to lose, know better.

Our good father in Washington-for I presume he is now our father as well as yours, since King George has moved his boundaries further north-our great and good father, I say, sends us word that if we do as he desires he will protect us. His brave warriors will be to us a bristling wall of strength, and his wonderful ships of war will fill our harbors, so that our ancient enemies far to the northward - the Haidas and Tsimshians - will cease to frighten our women, children, and old men. Then in reality he will be our father and we his children.

But can that ever be? Your God is not our God! Your God loves your people and hates mine! He folds his strong protecting arms lovingly about the paleface and leads him by the hand as a father leads an infant son. But, He has forsaken His Red children, if they really are His. Our God, the Great Spirit, seems also to have forsaken us. Your God makes your people wax stronger every day. Soon they will fill all the land. Our people are ebbing away like a rapidly receding tide that will never return. The white man's God cannot love our people or He would protect them. They seem to be orphans who can look nowhere for help. How then can we be brothers? How can your God become our God and renew our prosperity and awaken in us dreams of returning greatness? If we have a common Heavenly Father He must be partial, for He came to His paleface children. We never saw Him. He gave you laws but had no word for His red children whose teeming multitudes once filled this vast continent as stars fill the firmament. No; we are two distinct races with separate origins and separate destinies. There is little in common between us.

To us the ashes of our ancestors are sacred and their resting place is hallowed ground. You wander far from the graves of your ancestors and seemingly without regret. Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend or remember it. Our religion is the traditions of our ancestors - the dreams of our old men, given them in solemn hours of the night by the Great Spirit; and the visions of our sachems, and is written in the hearts of our people. Your dead cease to love you and the land of their nativity as soon as they pass the portals of the tomb and wander away beyond the stars. They are soon forgotten and never return. Our dead never forget this beautiful world that gave them being. They still love its verdant valleys, its murmuring rivers, its magnificent mountains, sequestered vales and verdant lined lakes and bays, and ever yearn in tender fond affection over the lonely hearted living, and often return from the happy hunting ground to visit, guide, console, and comfort them. Day and night cannot dwell together. The Red Man has ever fled the approach of the White Man, as the morning mist flees before the morning sun. However, your proposition seems fair and I think that my people will accept it and will retire to the reservation you offer them. Then we will dwell apart in peace, for the words of the Great White Chief seem to be the words of nature speaking to my people out of dense darkness.

It matters little where we pass the remnant of our days. They will not be many. The Indian's night promises to be dark. Not a single star of hope hovers above his horizon. Sad-voiced winds moan in the distance. Grim fate seems to be on the Red Man's trail, and wherever he will hear the approaching footsteps of his fell destroyer and prepare stolidly to meet his doom, as does the wounded doe that hears the approaching footsteps of the hunter.

A few more moon, a few more winters, and not one of the descendants of the mighty hosts that once moved over this broad land or lived in happy homes, protected by the Great Spirit, will remain to mourn over the graves of a people once more powerful and hopeful than yours. But why should I mourn at the untimely fate of my people? Tribe follows tribe, and nation follows nation, like the waves of the sea. It is the order of nature, and regret is useless. Your time of decay may be distant, but it will surely come, for even the White Man whose God walked and talked with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We will see.

We will ponder your proposition and when we decide we will let you know. But should we accept it, I here and now make this condition that we will not be denied the privilege without molestation of visiting at any time the tombs of our ancestors, friends, and children. Ever part of this soil is sacred in the estimation of my people. Every hillside, every valley, every plain and grove, has been hallowed by some sad or happy event in days long vanished. Even the rocks, which seem to be dumb and dead as the swelter in the sun along the silent shore, thrill with memories of stirring events connected with the lives of my people, and the very dust upon which you now stand responds more lovingly to their footsteps than yours, because it is rich with the blood of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch. Our departed braves, fond mothers, glad, happy hearted maidens, and even the little children who lived here and rejoiced here for a brief season, will love these somber solitudes and at eventide they greet shadowy returning spirits. And when the last Red Man shall have perished, and the memory of my tribe shall have become a myth among the White Men, these shores will swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when your children's children think themselves alone in the field, the store, the shop, upon the highway, or in the silence of the pathless woods, they will not be alone. In all the earth there is no place dedicated to solitude. At night when the streets of your cities and villages are silent and you think them deserted, they will throng with the returning hosts that once filled them and still love this beautiful land. The White Man will never be alone. Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not powerless.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline -tronski-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2825
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2002, 03:58:29 PM »
...and heres me thinking all Plains Indians  talk like Tonto...

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2002, 04:48:04 PM »
If that is closer to what is said. then hollywood as usual did not improve on it.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Give it 5 minutes...
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2002, 10:08:22 AM »
Quote
1887 Dr. Smith's...

authentic text of Chief Seattle's Treaty Oration - 1854
[Originally published in the Seattle Sunday Star, Oct. 29 1887]



If there even was a Dr. Smith or "authentic" text. The common "journalistic" practice at the time, particularly out on the frontier beat, was to write toejam off the top of your head, make it sensational or sentimental, and sell newspapers. Usually there was a kernal of truth -- a few lines from a telegraph -- but the rest was artistic license. Sometimes there was just a need to fill space so feature news was created from scratch. [The cheif could have just said: "Why must you always lie and screw us? I regret having encountered your people." which wouldn't have been as deep for the readers :) ]

As "bad" as journalism is today, it used to be much worse. Each paper was almost entirely the publisher's propaganda tool aimed at a like-minded target audience. Think the National Enquirer for each end of the political spectrum and parts in between. Hurst (I believe) even launched the Spanish-American war with his Remember the Maine coverage. Too bad it blew up on its own but we were able to enhance our mainfest destiny without feeling  guilty.

The sentiment of this piece is authentic, the specific words while possible are [certainly] questionable.

Charon
« Last Edit: August 02, 2002, 10:15:00 AM by Charon »