Guns question

[Targo]

Its a newbie question ...but hey I'm a newbie

Could someone please list all the guns on planes in AH from the most powerful to the weakest gun ? I don't know which guns are good especially the smaller calibers.

[Karnak]

Do you mean powerfule, as in hitting power, or powerful as in effectiveness?

Here is hitting power, weighted for effectiveness as a secondary attribute:

37mm Ns-37 - Yak-9T
40mm S-15 - Hurricane Mk IId
30mm Mk108 - Bf109G-6, Bf109G-10, Bf110G-2, Fw190A-8, Me262A-1, Ta152H-1
23mm VYa - Il-2
20mm Hispano Mk II / M2 20mm - F4U-1C, Hurricane Mk IIc, Mosquito Mk VI, P-38L, Seafire Mk IIc, Spitfire Mk Vb, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XIV, Typhoon Mk Ib
20mm Hispano Mk V - Tempest Mk V
20mm Ho-5 - Ki-61-I-KAIc, Ki-67
20mm Type 99 Model 2 - A6M5b, N1K2-J
20mm MG151/20 - Ar234B, Bf109F-4, Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Bf109G-10, Bf110G-2, C.205, Fw190A-5, Fw190A-8, Fw190F-8, Fw190D-9, Ta152H-1
20mm B-20 / ShVAK - La-5FN, La-7, Yak-9U
20mm MG/FF / Type 99 Model 1 - A6M2, Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Fw190A-5
12.7mm Browning .50 Cal - A-20G, B-17G, B-26B, F4F-4, F4U-1, F4U-1D, F4U-4, F6F-5, FM2, Lancaster Mk III, P-38L, P-40B, P-40E, P-47D-11, P-47D-25, P-47D-30, P-51B, P-51D, SBD-5, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XIV,TBM-3
12.7mm Ho-103 - Ki-61-I-KAIc, Ki-67
12.7mm Breda SAFAT - C.202, C.205
12.7mm UBS - Yak-9T, Yak-9U
13mm MG131 - Bf109G-6, Bf109G-10, Fw190A-8, Fw190F-8, Fw190D-9
7.92mm MG17 - Bf109E-4, Bf109F-4, Bf109G-2, Bf110C-4b, Fw190F-5, Ju88A-4
7.7mm Browning .303 Cal - Boston Mk III, Hurricane Mk I, Hurricane Mk IId, Lancaster Mk III, Mosquito Mk VI, P-40B, Seafire Mk IIc, Spitfire Mk Ia, Spitfire Mk Vb, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XIV
7.7mm Type 97 - A6M2, A6M5b
7.7mm Brada SAFAT - C.202, C.205
7.6mm ShKAS - Il-2

[HFMudd]

Probably not since style and skill play into this a lot.  While most folks would probably rate the Hispano 20mm as number 1 and the .303 mg last,  that is not all there is to it; how many guns, how they are mounted, how well matched the overall package is and so forth all come into play.

Start by reading through the info at this link.

[Targo]

Thanx a lot for the info

[brady]

I think Karnak's list proprerly describes the Hitting power of the guns in AH, the site HFmudd points to is a list of guns realitve to thier historical effectiveness, which has not so much to do with how hard they as to do with the whole picture, i.e. how well made was the gun was it's weight a pratical one, how was it's rof...ect.

 The only thing I would add to Karnacks list is this.

 The 20mm Type 99MK II cannon rounds hit 99% has had as the Hispano rounds, the H0-5 rounds are not nearly as powerfull, howeaver the Ho-5 has an extreamly high rof compesating for this, so withen a given time you will have more rounds on target, thus providing for a better overal weapon.

 Now I should thing the Italian and Japanese 7.7 shoud hit harder than their Browning do to the fact that they fired HEI type ammo, as apposed to the ball(type) ammo of the browning.

 Another thing to consider is effective rang. The Hispanos, Browning 50cal have a practile(imo) effective rang of almost 1.2k.

 The Japanese cannons and 12.7mm(13mm) have an effective range of around 400.

 The German 20mm MG 151/20 and the MG 131 have an efective range of around 400 as well.

 The 30mm, 37mm, and MGFF 20mm (Type 99 MK I) are around 300 to 350( the russian gun may be as far as 400, but I take no chances and always get sucideadly close to use these weapons)

 The rifle caliber weapons are realy only good under 400 imo.

  Now what this means is that for these weapons I set my convergance to this point. I arived at these figures basedd on my knowlede of Aircraft weapons( reaserch) and tests done with the Target in offline mode. Their is a practice target availbe offline that allows you see you fall of shot from these planes, for some of the ranges listed above you will see that firing these guns beyond the sugested range results in a shot patern so dispersed that it is impractile to use them beyound this point. Indead some of the weapons fail to even hit the target do to drop.

     

[SKurj]

The 37mm gun on the YakT is effective to d1.2+



Shoulda heard rram complain when his runstang got popped at d 1.1 +)


SKurj

[Karnak]

I will admit that I fudged the 7.7mms.  They are all relatively useless if you don't have a lot of them.  I've downed a single aircraft using four, and I don't consider two of them usable.

[RRAM]

Originally posted by SKurj

Shoulda heard rram complain when his runstang got popped at d 1.1 +)


SKurj

I said then what I say now...It was a hell of a shot from you, but IMO any kill like that is full of BS .

that is IMO; of course, but o well

[Sclew]

The Breda Safat should be above the .50 cal browning. HTC models these as having the explosive rounds so they have a chemical damage applied at all ranges as well as kinetic.

The UBS should be just below or equal to the browning. It has a slightly larger bullet (mass wise) and bigger case but I think it usually used a shorter barrel.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Karnak
Do you mean powerfule, as in hitting power, or powerful as in effectiveness?

Here is hitting power, weighted for effectiveness as a secondary attribute:

37mm Ns-37 - Yak-9T
40mm S-15 - Hurricane Mk IId
30mm Mk108 - Bf109G-6, Bf109G-10, Bf110G-2, Fw190A-8, Me262A-1, Ta152H-1
23mm VYa - Il-2
20mm Hispano Mk II / M2 20mm - F4U-1C, Hurricane Mk IIc, Mosquito Mk VI, P-38L, Seafire Mk IIc, Spitfire Mk Vb, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XIV, Typhoon Mk Ib
20mm Hispano Mk V - Tempest Mk V
20mm Ho-5 - Ki-61-I-KAIc, Ki-67
20mm Type 99 Model 2 - A6M5b, N1K2-J
20mm MG151/20 - Ar234B, Bf109F-4, Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Bf109G-10, Bf110G-2, C.205, Fw190A-5, Fw190A-8, Fw190F-8, Fw190D-9, Ta152H-1
20mm B-20 / ShVAK - La-5FN, La-7, Yak-9U
20mm MG/FF / Type 99 Model 1 - A6M2, Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Fw190A-5
12.7mm Browning .50 Cal - A-20G, B-17G, B-26B, F4F-4, F4U-1, F4U-1D, F4U-4, F6F-5, FM2, Lancaster Mk III, P-38L, P-40B, P-40E, P-47D-11, P-47D-25, P-47D-30, P-51B, P-51D, SBD-5, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XIV,TBM-3
12.7mm Ho-103 - Ki-61-I-KAIc, Ki-67
12.7mm Breda SAFAT - C.202, C.205
12.7mm UBS - Yak-9T, Yak-9U
13mm MG131 - Bf109G-6, Bf109G-10, Fw190A-8, Fw190F-8, Fw190D-9
7.92mm MG17 - Bf109E-4, Bf109F-4, Bf109G-2, Bf110C-4b, Fw190F-5, Ju88A-4
7.7mm Browning .303 Cal - Boston Mk III, Hurricane Mk I, Hurricane Mk IId, Lancaster Mk III, Mosquito Mk VI, P-40B, Seafire Mk IIc, Spitfire Mk Ia, Spitfire Mk Vb, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XIV
7.7mm Type 97 - A6M2, A6M5b
7.7mm Brada SAFAT - C.202, C.205
7.6mm ShKAS - Il-2

One of the problems of such a list, as already mentioned, is that guns have different characteristics and therefore have pros and cons. E.g., one gun may fire a cartridge twice as powerful as another, but at half the rate of fire; which is more effective? It really depends on the target.

Then there is the question of location. Cowling or wing-root mounted fighter guns have their RoF slowed down by synchronisation, but have the advantage that their fire is concentrated at all ranges, whereas outer wing-mounted guns only deliver concentrated fire at certain specified ranges.

Then there is the issue of ammunition type. The MG 151/20 was not particularly powerful, but fired high-capacity mine shells with huge blast effect. In some circumstances these would be much more effective than ordinary shells, in others, less. This is particularly true of the heavy machine guns (.5"/12.7-13mm calibre); the Japanese, Italians and Germans preferred HE rounds, the Americans and Russians went for API, which had different capabilities; sometimes more effective, sometimes less, depending on the target and where the projectiles strike.

Effective range in RL also varied hugely depending on the target. Once aircraft began to be protected with some armour and self-sealing tanks, then the rifle-calibre guns (.30/7-8mm) were down to about 200m and even then only if used en masse. The range of other weapons was really limited more by aiming problems than ballistics. It is true that a powerful cannon could destroy an aircraft at 1+km, but the chance of scoring any hits at much more than about 400m was remote.

Because of all of these variables I prefer to group weapons rather than try to provide a detailed rank order. All rifle-calibre guns were more or less the same. All HMGs were more or less the same, and about four times as effective as RCMGs; the .50" Browning and 12.7mm Berezin were more powerful than the others, but didn't use HE shells. Of the 20mm cannon, the Japanese Type 99-1 and German MG-FF were comparable (and perhaps twice as effective as the HMGs) while the others were much more comparable and perhaps three times as effective as HMGs. The 30mm guns were about four times as effective as 20mm. The 37mm actually used weren't much more effective, because almost all of the 30mm to see service were German and used mine shells which carried more HE than any of the 37mm.

It's a subject which you can argue about for ever, and I haven't even included factors such as the higher hit probability of high-velocity guns, or of the smaller-calibre weapons (due to the fact that they weigh less so you can fit more of them).

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Soviet]

i wouldn't rate the Shkas at the bottom of the barrel of 7mm weapons

Name  Ammunition  Rate of Fire Muzzle velocity Weight  Q-factor  
.30 M2  7.62 x 63 ( 9.73 g) 1200 rpm  835 m/s  10.4 kg  6520  
.303  7.7 x 56R (11.3 g) 1140 rpm  745 m/s  10.9 kg  5470  
MG 17  7.92 x 57 (10.0 g) 1100 rpm  790 m/s  12.5 kg  4580  
MG 81  7.92 x 57 (10.0 g) 1500 rpm  c. 730 m/s  6.3 kg  10600
Breda-SAFAT  7.7 x 56R (11.3 g) 900 rpm  730 m/s  12.5 kg  2730
Type 97  7.7 x 56R (11.3 g) 1000 rpm  750 m/s  11.8 kg  4490  
ShKAS  7.62 x 54R (11.9 g) 1800 rpm  825 m/s  10.6 kg  11500  

as you can see the Shakas has the 2nd best muzzle velocity (only 10m/s slower than the browning m2 .30cal) but it's rate of fire blows every other gun out of the water at a whopping 1800rpm.  The Russians had plans for an Ultra Shkas with a ROF of 2700rpm but they switched to HMGs and Cannons believing Rilfe caliber weapons were obsolete.

[Soviet]

the UBK was also the best HMG ever made

Name  Ammunition  Rate of Fire Muzzle velocity Weight  Q-factor  
Browning .50 M2 12.7 x 99 (48.5 g) 750 rpm  870 m/s  30 kg  7650  
UBK  12.7 x 108 (48 g)  1050 rpm  850 m/s  21 kg  14500  
MG 131  13 x 64B (34.6 g) 900 rpm  730 m/s  17 kg  8140

Note that the UBK is only 20m/s slower than the US .50cal and has a great ROF of 1050rpm, unfortunantly in syncronized installations it's ROF is dropped to 800m/s but it is armed with HE rounds making it more effective than the browning M2 .50cal

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Soviet
the UBK was also the best HMG ever made

Name  Ammunition  Rate of Fire Muzzle velocity Weight  Q-factor  
Browning .50 M2 12.7 x 99 (48.5 g) 750 rpm  870 m/s  30 kg  7650  
UBK  12.7 x 108 (48 g)  1050 rpm  850 m/s  21 kg  14500  
MG 131  13 x 64B (34.6 g) 900 rpm  730 m/s  17 kg  8140

Note that the UBK is only 20m/s slower than the US .50cal and has a great ROF of 1050rpm, unfortunantly in syncronized installations it's ROF is dropped to 800m/s but it is armed with HE rounds making it more effective than the browning M2 .50cal

I agree that on paper at least the Berezin was a better gun than the Browning (aspects such as relative reliability are difficult to determine). However, although the Soviets did have a 12.7mm HE round, I have only come across one mention of it - AFAIK they normally used an API (which was eventually copied by the Americans to make the .50" M8 round). Do you have any details of the proportions of rounds of different types normally loaded into ammunition belts?

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Karnak]

Tony,

My list was intended as applicable in simple terms to this game only.

Reality is much more complex than the game, and the game is much more complex than I wanted to get into, and I'm only familiar with portions of the game.

For example, I certainly don't consider the Vickers S-15 to be usable as an air-to-air weapon.

It was simply intended as a rough list for him to make decisions with in the game.