Panzer IVH vs the M4A3(76)W

[brady]

Now rumor has it we may see the Sherman or the T34 in the near future. I seriously doubt that we will see the T34 since it has no AA MG, althought the T34 was a beter tank, In AH whear 7mm bulits can disable tanks the lack of AA mg's is a serious concern. So this post will focus on the formentioned tanks. First some raw numbers.

 Lets look at the Guns:

 76mm M1A1c (see chart)http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/usa/guns.html

 7.5cm kwk 40 L48(see chart)http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/guns.html

 Now the rest of the story:

 PzKfW IVH(see chart)http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/pzkpfw_iv.html

 M4A3(76)W(see Chart)
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/usa/m4_sherman.html


  Ok after you all have a look at that HUGE amount of info:) Try and answer this simple "?" Would you perk the Panzer IVH?, If so why? or rather are they basicaly so simmilar that one could call the two a "fair" match.

[illo]

Yes, I think they are quite equal vehicles.

Sherman has higher profile...but it also has faster turret rotation. Gun/armor performances are quite similar.

[wklink]

Agreed, add a panther or something and perk it.  Either that or add some Italian or Japanese armor and give a ton of perk points for the schmuck that decided to use it.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by brady
 Ok after you all have a look at that HUGE amount of info:) Try and answer this simple "?" Would you perk the Panzer IVH?, If so why? or rather are they basicaly so simmilar that one could call the two a "fair" match.

1) I would not perk the PzIVH until there has been a complete remodel of the GV damage model. The way things are now, the Ostwind should be perked, nothing else.

2) If the gv damage model is reworked I would perk the PzIVH IF (and only if) the ground looks the way it does now. The PzIVH and the M4A3 (76) w is evenly matched at distances below 1000 yards. Above 1000 the M4A3 will not be able to hit the PzIVH in a "normal" engagement, and its gun will have problems with penetration. The way things look right now, it is too open for the M4A3 to have a chance. If we would have more woods, depressions, houses etc to make the ground more...you know..more real, then there would be no need to perk the IV, because the M4 can use that terrain to get in close to the PzIV.

3) Just realized when typing (2) that we need to have the correct sight for the PzIVH, right now we have an american gunsight in a German tank...thats kinda silly.

[Fishu]

By the way, if you're going to look the stats of these two guns, remember that US gun tables has bit better penetration than should in comparison to german gun tables.

This is because in US tests it was enough to see light through a crack of armour, while german tests required complete penetration.
Therefore if US guns would be required complete penetration, those wouldn't penetrate as much in comparison to german guns as stated.

[brady]

Another point to be loked at are the "special" AP rounds. The higher penetration figiures at various ranges are obtained from rounds that were limited, that is to say they only had a few on board. Theirfore these are not what you could consider normal values.

[GRUNHERZ]

German tankers were actually supplied with high performance ammo. US tankers had to steal it from tank destoyer battalions. The official US Army policy on tank use was criminal.

All in all the 85mm of the T34, the 76mm of the Sherman and the long 75mm Panzer IV were roughly equal with the Panzer IVs gun being the best of the three and having the best optics.

However the best tank gun of WW2 bar none was the 37mm of the Ostwind..

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
German tankers were actually supplied with high performance ammo. US tankers had to steal it from tank destoyer battalions. The official US Army policy on tank use was criminal.

All in all the 85mm of the T34, the 76mm of the Sherman and the long 75mm Panzer IV were roughly equal with the Panzer IVs gun being the best of the three and having the best optics.

High performance German ammo in 75mm? Which is this?

You've missed out the (76mm) 17 pdr, the best of the lot

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Fishu]

Tony,

By high performance ammo I think he means better ammo.
Germans had better shells in general than US or Soviet (especially better than soviet :>).. if you would put up same sort of guns on a line and validate the best one with typical ammo.

17pdr isn't anymore in the same class as previously mentioned guns
It's more in the class of 75L70 KwK 42
So you'd have to put FireFly together with the Panther.


btw. brits does also have quite loose requirements for penetration :>

[GRUNHERZ]

Well Tony lets say PzGr40/42 for the KwK42/L70 of Panther.

As for Firefly thats is indeed a special case availabitly vehicle. Anyway there was a reason the Bitish spent so much time camouflaging that extra barrel lengh.

[illo]

Germans didnt use Pzgr 40/42 (wolfram core rounds) in 75L48mm or better in west front. It wasn't simply needed to deal with tanks of western allies. All of this rare ammo went directly to the main front in east.

Western allied tankers had better Tungsten round availabilty especially after late 1944. TD battalions having best supply of these rounds.

Normal tankers had maybe 1 or 2 for emergency situations...like when facing Panther at short range.


About 76L51 armed M4a3...it surely didn't have trouble penetrating front of PzKpfw IVhs over 1000yards. Even at 2000yards it can get clean penetration to PzKpfw IV front turret. Ofcourse this is same vice versa. Germans had better optics no doubt. (able to use sights as range measuring device, while US tankers had to use "braketing" shots to estimate range)

[wulfie]

Gun performance about equal.

AP+ on the Allied 76L51 better than the AP+ on the German 75L48.

Pz IVH = much better sight and optics, in terms of both quality and design.

Tony Williams - I've got some interesting documents you may want a look at...it's a 'tactical primer' for 75L48 AP+ vs. the mantlet of the IS-2 and IS-2m issued to German AT and Pz gunners late in WW2. Apparently part of the mantlet was a 'weak spot' at cloer ranges using tungsten AP with the 75L48. As soon as I get home and near a scanner...

Overall the 76L51 armed Sherman is a little better than the Pz IVH I'd say. Better mobility, a little higher silhouette but once you have the cast frontal hull Sherman with the 76L51 (i.e. M4A3E8) the bottom line is that a M4A3E8 has a noticably better chance of surviving a frontal 75L48 hit at 1000m than the Pz IVH has of surviving a 76L51 hit at 1000m.

If rarity matters at all, the first Sherman modeled should be the M4A2 with the 75L38 MA and the first T-34 modeled should be the T-34/76C. Then you'd have the most common 75/76mm armed MBT for Germany, UK, USA, USSR.

Mike/wulfie

p.s. Yep Tony the 17 Pdr. was a real hot one. Pz training manuals from 1944 onward instructed Pz gunners to engage the lone Firefly of a British Sherman troop first in any/all engagements.

[Hortlund]

But is it really fair to compare the easy8 with the PzIVH? Wouldnt a more fair comparrison be easy8-PzV?

And why is everyone so hung up on Shermans anyway. It would be much more interesting to have the M36.

The M36 would eat the PzIVH alive (although the crappy US optics does make it at least somewhat interesting) and it could hold its own vs the Panther and Tiger I.

---
If you added the T-34/76C and the M4A2 you would effectively add two hangar queens. You would also add two 1942-type tanks (if my memory serves me correct) this would be a bit unfair since the PzIVH is a 43-type tank.

The M4A2 would be a disaster (since it did not have wet stowage). The T-34/76 would be a disaster (since it had a crappy gun, a two man turret and abysmal optics).

Better would be the M4A3 (76) w and the T-34/85.

Best would be the M4A3 (76) w and the M36 Jackson for the yanks. The Pz V and the StuGIIG for the Krauts and the T-34/85 and the SU-100 for the Commies.

Now THAT would be awesome to have.

[brady]

In a perfect worl Hortland:) Althought GV's seam to me to get a lot of use in AH and their even seam to be some definate devotie's to the GV arm, I feal AH tends to view it as a side show.

 So bearing that In mind I bet we see only one tank added to AH in the near future(1.11 hopefully) as far as I can tell the closest match for the Panzer IV H we have is the M4A3(76)W.

 Personaly I think a T34 would be great but it has no AA MG, this would suck.

 A posable fly in this seamingly good choice for adation is this....HTC neads a perk GV. If HTC were to add the 75mm guned Sherman he could posably rationalise the perking of the PAnzerIVH. Add on top this a new realistic sight for Panzer IVH, possable special AP rounds. and we could see a cheaply perked Panzer IVH. Why Cheap.... the 303's on the spit MK I can still imobalise you......

[GRUNHERZ]

Perking any variant of the PzIV is laughable. A 75mm Sherman has the advantage of the 50cal turbolaser air defense system.  It's sole disadvantage would be AP performance.