bombing

[Pongo]

you said this
"BS bongo

read a book

Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.

"
did they send level bombers to hit a specific target and sink it successfully or not.
Did they send level bombers to hit a specific structure and destroy it or not.
I even chose an example of each plane using a single bomb.
You have been foaming at the mouth that bombers where not used that way. Yet your own post proves they were.
Your babbling percentages. The bombers were designed and deployed and successful at hitting exact targets.

Good for Rudel. Lots of other pilots did the same. Many more dive bomber pilots failed to sink moored warships with strike after strike after strike.
Where was Rudel in Malta harbour when the Germans needed him.
If 20 dive bombers attacked a target in ww2 and all missed does that mean that dive bombing in AH should not work?
If the average fighter pilot could only hit  1% of the time and at ranges arround 200 yards should we limit the game to that..

Your image of what bombers should be able to do in the game is restricted by what was done with them in the battle of Germany and what you would like them to do. But when you start trying prove historically that that is all they were good for you are just lying.
and an idiot.
Not even a good lier since you post information that proves you wrong, but a hell of an idiot not to realize it, or in realizing it to still try your pathetic denials.

As for the statistical accuracy of carpet bombing.
most of that lack of accuracy was due to conditions at the target and all droping from a single mark from 20k plus.
remove the flack.
remove the smoke at the target and the intercepting fighters and the cold and the fear and all the other things that they faced.
Give them a clear sight picture of huge bomber hanger from 10k..

Lets see their accuracy on the range, state side before they ever went overseas.
That is what we have in AH.

[Karnak]

Wotan,

The Lancs that sank the Tirpitz were not using the area bombing "drop on the leader" tactics used in carpet bombing.  Each Lanc made its own run and dropped on its own bombsight and bombardiers informations.

Carpet bombing = formation dropping on the leader's mark, something is bound to hit

Precision bombing = each bomber makes its own run and tries to hit the target, not just whatever ground happens to be under it when the leader drops.


What would your suggestion be to integrate the bombers into AH in a usefaul and fun way?

I agree that the FHs should be bomber resistant, as they are now.

There must be alternatives.  You hated my idea and I hated your idea.  There's got to be something.

[ET]

Reality, I keep reading this word and how different people want to apply it in AH. Reality would be closer to the actual if 50% of pilots were assigned to bombers, 25% to fighters and the rest to C47 goon and resupply runs. But that would disturb many folks idea of reality and spoil their fun.
So how about trying to come up with a concept that would put the bombers back into the game and doing useful work. What we have at the moment is not the answer.
If the factories were hit, such as a ammo factory and 25% of the factory went down resulting in that country only being able to get 3/4 of their bomb and rocket load at every air field and the same for fuel refinerys and troop training.Factory 50% dead, you only get half the the total availability..75% dead, only 25% of supply. That would result in bomb raids that mean something and the bombers would still have to be able to hit targets with the new bombsite.
To bring factories back on line it should take 10 resupply C47s for every 25%. Yes resupply would be important or attrition would take its toll.No automatic rebuilding of factories. Fighters would have to go back to original roles of attacking bombers or protecting them. Another bunch of fighters could make jabo runs at air fields and of course fighters there would try to stop them.
Of course this is only my conception of reality and I apologize if some else has put this idea of bombing out before and I missed the thread.

[zipity]

Originally posted by Wotan
BS bongo

read a book

Bombers never were used to kill individaul structures in rl so why make gameplay concesions now.

Ok I'm back, I was off reading some books.  Funny but I can't find anything in any WWII history book about airfields being shut down when the FHs were destroyed.  However in reading about Guadalcanal, Henderson Field was threatened almost daily by Japanese bombers flying out of Rabaul.  On many occasions, flight ops at Henderson were shutdown while repairs were made to the runway which had been pasted by high level bombers.  More than a few times these disruptions to flight ops were an attempt to help Japanese ground forces trying to take the field.  So I partly agree with Wontan in that bombers weren't usually used to hit individual structures but disagree in that they were used very successfully in ruining fighter pilots days.

Regarding the B-17s that flew over Europe.  I read that while the bombardier was calibrating the bomb sight, they actually had people manning the guns.  After playing AH, I would have thought that while the bombardier was calibrating, all gunners would have been taking a nap.  (unless maybe they had someone join them in flight)  You know these gunners would even tell the pilot when a con was sneaking up behind them.  Amazing the things you get out of books.  

So now having read these books, I guess we can ask HT for 2 additional features.  1) dumping 20-40k worth of bombs on a field's runways should close the field to flight ops for a while. 2) Every gun on a bomber should be manned at all times.  If not with a real person then with an AI gunner.  I'm with you on supporting reality Wontan.

Finally, I have to agree with ET.  Everybody's concept of reality seems to fit what they like to fly best.  If we had 100% reality, people would die and get wounded, face it that could get messy.  No one is going to want to spend weeks at a time driving a fuel tanker from Portsmouth, New Hampshire to England so fighter bases in the UK have enought fuel to play for a few days.  What people do want is something that gives you $15 worth of fun and entertainment per month.  The furball guys may not like to hear this but many of the bomber guys don't feel like they're getting their money's worth.  As these guys drop out of AH, HTC may not be able to provide the furballers with the kind of entertainment they want.  The bottom line is another great sim fades into history.  I think we can all agree we don't want that fate for AH.

[Pongo]

dont missunderstand me.
I like the bomber system as implemented in 1.10 and like the extra skill needed to hit. If it is fixed back to that level for me I will be a happy bombadier again cause I like the extra stuff to do.
I like being able to take down 14 hangers if I do my stuff right instead of 4.
There is a bug I think right now that doesnt let a few of us (at least skurj and me) bomb like in 1.10.
Someone has sugested a calibration of 25 seconds...ok Ill try that.. I dont care I can hold the crosshairs for as long as it takes.

[lazs2]

"Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry.. "

bet they couldn't do that again.  Oh wait... they never did.

in the 60's a kid was killed by frozen  poop dropped from an airliner.  It is unclear what type of sight was used.

Why does killing FH's stop the ability for planes to take off?  That is like saying if they tear up my parking space my car won't run.  

It boils down to the fact that fluffs shouldn't have so much effect on fighters.   Game or "realism" it ain't right.   If you are on the realism side then... No... they never did.   If you are on the game side... then.. why should they?   Why should a couple of talentless guys substituting patience for skill be able to ruin the fun of so many others?
lazs

[zipity]

Originally posted by lazs2
"Lancs level droped a single bomb onto a single ship and hit it.
is that a point target or what larry.. "

bet they couldn't do that again.  Oh wait... they never did.

in the 60's a kid was killed by frozen  poop dropped from an airliner.  It is unclear what type of sight was used.

Why does killing FH's stop the ability for planes to take off?  That is like saying if they tear up my parking space my car won't run.  

It boils down to the fact that fluffs shouldn't have so much effect on fighters.   Game or "realism" it ain't right.   If you are on the realism side then... No... they never did.   If you are on the game side... then.. why should they?   Why should a couple of talentless guys substituting patience for skill be able to ruin the fun of so many others?
lazs

Hmmm, take out everything not designed to piss someone off and your quote could be shortened to "frozen poop".  

Buffs have never been able to end a furball all they do is move it around the map making resets possible.  But v1.10 has taken care of this..now buffs are so easy to kill even a talentless fighter pilot using auto trim could kill one or two drones.  Most of the pilots these days are running jabo missions because it's the quickest way to kill fields.  In the pizza map, milk-runing jabos and GVs move the furball (if you can find one) around the map much faster than buffs ever did.  

AH needs a furball arena for those 10-20 fighter pilots that not only don't want anything to do with ground targets but take offence if anyone attacks their precious FHs.  When these guys can't find a furball all they do is grab a whole bunch of alt and drop in on poor defenseless jabo pilots forcing them to drop their ord and dive for the deck.  As you say, talentless guys substituting patience for skill shouldn't be able to ruin the fun for so many others.

[Shiva]

in the 60's a kid was killed by frozen poop dropped from an airliner. It is unclear what type of sight was used.

Just goes to show that even if you live in an area without any strategic targets, you still have to worry about being hit by an icy B.M.    

Why does killing FH's stop the ability for planes to take off? That is like saying if they tear up my parking space my car won't run.

How well will it run if we blow up your garage and drop the wreckage on top of your car?

It boils down to the fact that fluffs shouldn't have so much effect on fighters. Game or "realism" it ain't right.

And neither is it 'right' that a formation of Lancasters can scatter twenty-one tons of bombs along a runway, and the fighters taking off on that runway will be able to taxi right through the craters as if they were painted on the ground -- but I don't see you complaining about that, Or are you going to argue that it's not realistic to use level bombers to chew up runways to deny their use to the enemy when that very use is heavily documented?

Yes, blowing up the hangars is an artificial mechanism; it's easier to arbitrarily decide that destroying all of the fighter hangars at a field keeps anyone from launching fighters than listen to everyone whining about the twits who gamed the sim by dropping 1,000-lb bombs just in front of the runway spawn points so everyone who tries to take off breaks their gear as they taxi into the crater before they can react.

Why should a couple of talentless guys substituting patience for skill be able to ruin the fun of so many others?

Judging from how many people I've seen posting squeakes and 'help me' requests about the new bombsight calibration, it seems to me that bombing accurately requires skill of its own. But you don't care about that; if it doesn't involve letting you take off and dive into a furball whenever, wherever, and however you want, it has no value to you. Where your reasoning falls on its face and dies, though, is that you're absolutely convinced that you are the sole and unquestioned arbiter -- that if something has no value to you, it therefore has no value to anyone, and if someone says otherwise, then their opinion is worthless.  And you attempt to marginalize their position by using a derogatory term, as if calling them a silly name somehow magically makes them silly.

I could say that the people who believe that the only purpose of an air-combat simulation is to allow people to furball in fighters are using the macho symbolism of a high-powered fighter controlled by their hand firmly grasping their joystick (and a lovely double-entendre that is, too) to try to compensate in the artificial world of the game for their real-life sexual inadequacies, and feel unreasonably threatened by people who threaten their ability to get their noodle substitute thrusting firmly into the air -- a castration complex, as it were.

And I could say this over and over again, repeating the same diatribe until everyone's sick of it, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference -- if what I say does describe you, then it describes you, and if it doesn't describe you, no amount of repetition is going to make it describe you.

[Pongo]

Yes they should laz
live with it.
If the LW let a lanc loiter over thier field at 10k with no ack or fighter oposition on a clear day it would have raped em...
live with it.

[Gixer]

Interesting posts guys, I would just like to add that the only instance I know of where a single level bomber achieved a 1 hit one kill on a major target (unfortunetly I don't have any books to quote for exact info) is by the luftwaffe in the Med where a Italian Battleship was heading for UK after surrender, the Germans used a single HE111 with a new untried guided bomb to sink it, bombadier used radio singles and joystic to remote control the rocket propelled bombs path straight down the funnel of the Battleship and sinking it with heavy loss of life.

Apparently Hitler was informed that it was sunk, but by Stukas. As they didn't want Hitler to think he had a new secert terror weapon to focus on and take development from other criticle projects at the time.

Very interesting , as I only learnt of this a few months ago. Sorry I don't know the weight of the bomb or any other detailed information though sure its on the web somewhere.


In AH we have a great range of bombers to use. And now the ability to use them as they were designed, as Medium and Strategic Bombers. We just need the targets for them to be more usefull and effective in hitting. Cities (bigger),factories,depots,railyards etc which have more of an impact in the arena when destroyed and also stay destroyed longer then just a few minutes. Therefore giving the buffs an important role to play in AH once again.

Just my 2 cents.


...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers

[MOSQ]

Just to throw a little fuel on the fire....I'm surprised that with all the talk about the Tirpitz, no one has mentioned the most famous sinking of a battleship by a single bomb from a level bomber, the Arizona at Pearl Harbor !
It was not Jabos, not torpedoes, but a single bomb released from a high alt Japanese LEVEL bomber that penetrated straight down to the ammunition magazine and took the ship out with one blast.
It has been recreated in the most recent Pearl Harbor movie, that's not a dive bomber, but a level bomber.

[runny]

Originally posted by MOSQ

It was not Jabos, not torpedoes, but a single bomb released from a high alt Japanese LEVEL bomber that penetrated straight down to the ammunition magazine and took the ship out with one blast.
It has been recreated in the most recent Pearl Harbor movie, that's not a dive bomber, but a level bomber.

I take it you're joking, but if not, where'd the level bomber come from?  Off the carriers?  Shangri-La?

[BenDover]

why not?

all a level bomber needs is a bombsight,




oh..........and a bomb

[runny]

Originally posted by BenDover
why not?

all a level bomber needs is a bombsight,




oh..........and a bomb

Duh, yeah, I forgot that the Kate could be used as a level bomber.

Even then, the accounts I saw had the Japanese bombers hitting the ship from around 3000 meters, not the 8000+ meters of the typical pre-1.10 bombing run.