Author Topic: Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!  (Read 594 times)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« on: August 08, 2002, 12:00:50 AM »
This is in accordance with the recent discussions on .50 calibur rounds and GV penetration.

 Now, I understand the mandate for balancing realism and game play depends on how well the game would function under the limits preset by 'realism'. Thus, when excessive realism would disrupt game play(ie. realistic terrain distances and fuel burn), the realism factor will be neutered down to acceptable ranges in order to keep the game 'fun'.

 Thus, this would mean 'reality' in AH can be bent at will in order to keep the balance  alive - sometimes, some part of reality has to be excluded to keep other parts of reality and game play alive.

 (ie. Every field has has fuel tanks which can be destroyed. It depicts the importance of fuel resources, but even if all fuel resources are destroyed, planes can up withj 25% fuel - game play concession)

 ...

 I am suggesting the same kind of concession be applied to GVs. Current damage modelling, it seems, is unappropriate to handle complex nature of damages often suggested by various charts on penetration and destruction. I understand many people agree on this matter that "GV DM needs to be worked out".

 So in this case, I am requesting that HTC bend the 'reality' that some .50s might be able to penetrate Panzer armour, so it may effectively depict another 'reality' that MG strafing against tanks are in almost every case ineffective and useless, and special planes are needed for such tasks.

 Therefore, I find that it might be necessary to exclude the 'penetration data' as a whole until a damage model which is adequate for handling the delicate data of differing penetration values as suggested in some charts.  As it is, the current way of depicting penetration leads to results that defy the generality of MG vs tank situation as seen in WWII.

 In the mean time(until an adequate way to handle penetration with DM is developed), AH should introduce a game play concession which gives immunity to Panzers against rifle-calibre rounds and 20mm cannons. This would benefit AH in these ways:

1) It would promote the usage of Panzers
2) It would depict ground warfare better
3) It would promote the usage of specialized ground attack planes which people rarely use

 Point 1) will come naturally. The reason why people choose Ostwinds as the GV of choice in most occasions is because it holds formiddable AA capabilities. Currently the danger of even a single light fighter strafing a Panzer tank is so high that people will seldom choose the Panzer over an Ostwind. A "GV raid" seldom means awesome assortment of tanks, flak wagons and scout vehicles, but rather a hoarde of Ostwinds. If people can have faith that the Panzer can withstand small arms fire up to 20mms, they will choose it frequently.

 Point 2) will come as people use the Panzer more. As the numbers of Panzer tanks increase in one side, the opposing side must increase the number of tanks equally. GV battles which consist of mostly flaks and few handful tanks, hopefully, will shift to Panzers and flaks balanced in equality. Precise bombing will be required for the Panzers as they will be immune up to 20mm fire, which will increase their survivability against aircraft. More Panzers there are, more real 'tank' battles there will be.

 Point 3) as dive bombing and low level bombing, precise rocket attacks are a difficult task for the average level pilot, people using specialized anti-GV platform such as the IL-2 and the Hurri2Dwill naturally increase, as it is always easier to strafe than bomb or rocket. The points as explained in 1) and 2) would result in less flaks and more panzers, which will also increase the survivability of the low flying tank busters like the IL-2.

 ....

 As a temporary solution, granting immunity to the Panzer up to 20mm cannons will be BETTER for BOTH game play and reality, than the current DM and penetration values.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2002, 12:19:59 AM »
Sounds good, but this only addresses the defensive issues.

Unless something has changed in 1.10 (and I haven't tested it), the Panzer is still worthless against buildings.
sand

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2002, 12:30:02 AM »
I would be totally against this and think you need to look elsewhere for solutions.

The main problem in AH is not the damage modelling... its the gameplay.  A panzer is toast now because it is always deep in enemy territory with little to no air cover.  That panzer would always be dead in real life no matter what penetration data said.

The Pizza map did the groundwar quite well.  The panzers were used quite a bit more because there were areas where it was strictly gv vs gv.  The panzer had more kills in one week than it had the entire tour preceding it.

If you make them impervious to specific types of gunfire, you open the door for the use of panzers as a "drive right up to your field" vehicle.  That is more a-historical than anything you can come up with in regards to damage.

Sorry

AKDejaVu
« Last Edit: August 08, 2002, 12:36:03 AM by AKDejaVu »

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2002, 11:10:15 AM »
I sense a glaring contradiction here.

Quote
The main problem in AH is not the damage modelling... its the gameplay. A panzer is toast now because it is always deep in enemy territory with little to no air cover. That panzer would always be dead in real life no matter what penetration data said.


  Why would making the Panzer impervious to only three gun types(30calibre/7.92mm, 50calibre/13mm, and 20mm) open the door for the use of Panzers as a "drive right up to your field" vehicle?

 A Panzer will be deep inside enemy territory with shallow air cover just the same, but only to specific gun types  it is granted immunity.

 Then, if it were so, why would it suddenly change the Panzer into something monstrous like that when the main reason for the weakness of Panzer you have stated  - "enemy air cover" - is still present? Unless, perhaps the real strength of the 'air cover' in AH  is within its ability to strafe, not of bomb or rocket?? ;)

 If you really believe in what you have said, ironically, it actually demonstrates the point that the most formiddable air-to-ground weaponery an aircraft would use against GVs in AH is not bombs nor rockets, not heavy anti-tank cannons, but plain MGs and 20mm cannons. Why else would granting immunity to those weapons change the Panzer so much when the ability of the rockets and bombs to destroy tanks are all still there?

 You have cleverly avoided the point by stating "That panzer would always be dead in real life no matter what penetration data said." Of course, that is so true - without referring to "what was the real reason behind the destruction of the tank in generality" that is.

 Yes small numbers of tanks would have been dead in real life, just as in AH. But was it be because some desperate guy in a fighter strafed a Panzer from the side at low speed low angles and knocked out vital parts? Or was it because of organized air-to-ground strikes volleying loads of rockets and bombs in a deadly manner?

 There is a big difference in these two which just cannot be 'skipped without mentioning'. I don't think even you are willing to refute the fact that strafing tanks were hugely inefficient way to attack in real-life, no matter what the possibility of penetration is.

 If so, would a "concession that portrays the very inefficiency up to utmost maximum" not be better than the "pseudo-reality modelled by a data chart which seems to brings out the exact opposite results of what it was like in real-life"? :confused:

 Would a "concession that encourages people to use specialized planes fit for the task they choose" not be better than every fighter plane being valid for the task and thus rendering the specialized planes useless?

 What exactly have the people got to lose here?

 Logically, there is no reason the Panzer would be able to just barge through every defense line even if it is granted some sort of immunity. After all, there are always planes with rockets and bombs, and specialized aircraft designed for the very purpose of strafing tanks. What the defending fighters won't be able to do is strafe every Panzer they see and knock the parts out and render it completely uselss. If they want to do that, they would either have to up an IL-2 or maybe a soon-to-com plane like a Stuka.

 In short, there is nothing to lose, except the fact a plane lightly armed for A2A purpose won't be able to just discover a tank, go down and strafe it until it starts smoking.

 Would it not be better off to lose that kind of strange fact exclusive in AH universe? Where people rely on mainly on small calibre guns to kill armoured vehicles?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2002, 12:07:56 PM »
I'll go for it with two other additions.

We "bend the reality" a little for the fighters and grant them immunity from the turret mounted MG.. since no gunner would really want to be up there popping away when under air attack.

... and we "bend the reality" a little for the fighters so that a fighter can hit a spawn point button and be transported right back to the GV spawn point at 5000 AGL with a new aircraft and ord.

Sound OK?

Anyone else want to bend some realities that I missed?  ;)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2002, 12:15:41 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2002, 12:14:48 PM »
Kweasa,

Panzers were made for attacking ground units.. not air units.  As a rule, most of their engagements with aircraft involved alot of hiding.  That goes for any ground vehicle.

So now... we throw them into a predominantly aircraft laiden war.  There are no troops and no small arms fire to worry about.  What are the panzers to do?  Attack airfields and aircraft?  Yeppers... you want to leap right out of the frying pan and right into the fire... don't ya?

Trying to make the panzers fit in with a predominantly aircraft laiden arena is always going to be completely gamey.  The only way to start bringing things back to reality is to create a predominantly GV area where aircraft are more scarce and GV vs GV becomes your main concern.  Only one map in the rotation currently does that.

Anything else is moving away from reality... and making the panzers near invincible.  And I'm trying to understand why anyone would want that.

AKDejaVu

Offline SKurj

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2002, 01:25:43 PM »
I like the idea!!

ok tone down the pintle gun on the panzer vs aircraft, forcing the gv's to bring mobile flak.  oh yeah and increase the pz's effectiveness vs buildings and reduce the osty's.


SKurj

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2002, 02:50:32 PM »
panzers dont attack airfields in ah. osties do.

panzers mostly roll to defend/engage ostwinds that are attacking/defending a field.

You ever try to kill a hanger in a pnzr? takes about a week......

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2002, 12:05:55 AM »
Sounds fair enough, Toad.

 Except the respawn thing doesn't really sound fair. Maybe a bit more lenient conditions for someone to get a proximity kill when a damaged GV pushes the "Hangar" button near spawn point would be compromise enough?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2002, 12:12:36 AM »
Counter offer then.......

When a GV hits the button to "spawn out" it takes the same amount of time to get there (GV is in computer limbo.. a big long pause) as it takes the slowest plane in the inventory to fly to that spawn point from the nearest field at default climb speed.

So, if it would take a plane 5 minutes to climb from the nearest field to the spawn point, the GV will be "lost in space" for 5 minutes after the spawn button is pushed.

That's fair, isn't it? More than fair.. it's making the GV as fast as a plane; faster really because some of those spawn points are a long, long way from the nearest VH. What an advantage THAT is during a GV attack, eh?  

Deal?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2002, 12:33:57 AM »
Deja, your point is valid, especially the emphasis on the orientation of the game AH itself. No amount of 'fine tuning' in an air-oriented game will satisfy people with a fantastic ground warfare, that's true.

 But since the objective of the war in AH is to grab fields, then Panzers should have a role in offensive tactics to fit. Currently, they are severely unable to do so because they are so pathetically weak. People marching to towns and fields take Ostwinds and M3s, never Panzers. They take Panzers only if there is a GV defending the town or field. I don't think the  mainstay of mechanized units should be 37mm flakpanzers. Do you?

 ....

 You say Panzers would start marching toward the field and town, and 'jump right in'. I say what's wrong with that? What's so different from current GV offensive where Ostwinds march into fields and towns? (One would think hoardes of Osties marching to town and field would be a lot more worse for fighters, no?)

  I'm not asking all GVs receive immunity, but only the Panzers. Other GVs would be strafed and damaged just the same as now. The suggestion was to give the tank a more confident role within the ground-war element in AH, which, currently has no place for a Panzer in aggressive usage but only small, limited point defense as Wotan notes.

  Why would you insist the Panzers would be invincible? How can them being granted immunity to limited certain types of weaponery make them invincible? What do the fighters have bombs for?

 Would they be invincible to normal fighters without bomb and rocket ordnance??

 Yes, of course, and rightfully so!

  After all, wasn't that the reason why planes like the IL-2 were developed; because normal fighters could hardly take out tanks? Wasn't that the reason many USAAF planes developed such impressive A2G capabilities when they were getting ready to march in to Germany? Wasn't that the reason planes like the Yak-9T, Yak-9K, Hurri2D were carrying awesome 37mm, 45mm, and 40mm cannons?

 ...

 So tell me again.

 Why would this make Panzers "invincible" when planes aren't deprived of rockets, bombs or heavy cannons???

 The only reason you would say so, as I have pointed out before, is if you think yourself A2G attacks against Panzers in AH, rely more on guns than rockets or bombs - that the main reason behind Panzers being destroyed and seriously disabled is due to machine guns.

 How else can one interpret it?

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2002, 12:47:44 AM »
Toad:

 ... and that woud contribute to GV and aircraft game play in what sort of way?

 Come to think of it, what is the relevance of this 'spawn' issue you have brought up? That they are unrealistic and should also be fixed? That I am being "selective" as how I don't object to a  certain "unreality" but request other "unreality" to be fixed?

 ...

 Nice try, dude.

ps) raise hands now, guys. Be truthful.

  How many of you miss your bombs and rockets against Panzers, and the real 'damage' you do is all done by strafing them? I'm guessing a real big number of people would be so.  

 And.. how many of you guys would be pissed that once you missed your bombs and rockets, you have to go get another set, since strafing them won't do shi*? Anyone? I should see a whole forest of hands.

 ...

 Well, then, how many of you think you are lazy and should learn to use the right method of attack against GVs? Noone?

 Funny, I seemed to see a lot of people suggesting "learn how to attack buffs, use the right altitude, speed, and method" when buff gun issues were up. Why would "learn how to attack GVs" piss someone off?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2002, 09:15:57 AM »
Actually, the point I'm making is in this example:

A few folks plan a GV mission against a base from a VH many miles away. No problem, because they can "spawn out" and get most of the way there in an instant. From this spawn point they are only a few minutes drive to a point where the base is in range of their weaponry.

A few defenders of the base are warned of this attack. They takeoff with bombs and rockets (assuming the immunity thing). Let's say it takes 3-4 minutes to take off, climb a bit and fly to the scene of the action, the spawn point.

A defender does an excellent job with his FM2. He hits one vehicle with his 2 100lb bombs and it dies. He uses all his rockets on another and it dies. He must now RTB and rearm.

That's a 6-8 minute round trip for him.

For the GV's he killed, it's the instant click of a mouse.

Doesn't seem right that GV's can teleport back to the battlescene instantly but that an aircraft has a distinct "cycle time" back to base.

In short, the "insta-spawn" is a significant FORCE MULTIPLIER.

How would you feel if the fighters above had a "Inflight Rearm" button that worked like the "insta-spawn" button? A floating "Ord Powerup" point over every GV spawn point?

From the fighter perspective, with "insta-spawn" no matter how well you fight and fly over a spawn point your efforts are essentially futile. The targets respawn far faster than your small amount of ord can handle.

That's why I suggested a spawn delay somewhat equal to flight time from the nearest base.

It still gives the GV's the ability to return to the spawn point in 1/2 of the round trip rearm time for the fighters.

That's fair, isn't it?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2002, 09:18:41 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2002, 09:37:25 AM »
yep... plus.. I like killing panzers with my -1a.   It takes half my ammo load at close range and most of the time someone else finishes em off and I get the kill but... I lke hitting em in the butt with a hundred rounds and seeing em start to smoke.   Now they can either take the death and respawn in essentially the same place they were or.... they can be a marked or helpless target...  More options than I have in any case.
lazs

Offline Blindman

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
Suggestion: Immunity to Panzers!
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2002, 10:14:08 AM »
Spawn points are out far enough to make the GVs drive
time to a base almost the same as a plane to another
base (gameplay concession)

Tanks should be impervious to 303s at least
Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.