Author Topic: Charlton Heston's speech  (Read 4509 times)

Offline Toad

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #210 on: August 14, 2002, 07:52:19 AM »
"Illinois:  Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.  Art. I, § 22 (enacted 1970)."

I think that's why Morton Grove was allowed to stand.

The State Constitution allowed it.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2002, 07:58:31 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #211 on: August 14, 2002, 09:07:54 AM »
interesting to me that gun ownership is such a left/right thing.   Don't know why that is.  perhaps some of you lefties could explain?

All firearms should be legal.   using them (like driving a car)  badly or to take away someones rights should be punished.   I believe that if a man kills 20 kids with an AK then he should be punished.   If he is let out of prison.... He should be handed back his weapon and his right to vote etc..  If you think he needs to stay in prison then it is the court system that needs overhauling not the firearms laws.

It is fortunate tho that so many who oppose private (or any kind) of gun ownership are so ignorant of firearms.   They constantly make ridiculous claims for firearms and will ban guns based on looks rather than utility or function.   I have a perfectly legal mini 14.   It is not black so it is not an "assault rifle".   They don't even know what they really want (other than to make it impossible for law abiding citizens to own or use firearms).

I have never take anyone out shooting for their first time who did not thourouly enjoy themselves.   Most expressed interest in buying a firearm of their own afterwards.   I had to advise some of them that the one they wanted was no longer legal.    How can liberals condone banning firearms that they know nothing about?

but to me it all boils down to this....   The second ammendmant is the only one that guarentees the rest of the constitution.
lazs

Offline midnight Target

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #212 on: August 14, 2002, 11:00:48 AM »
Funny thing is laz, I agree. I enjoy shooting (although I have limited experience), and I think the right to own a firearm should be protected.

None of the above has anything to do with the fact that the 2nd amendment is still ambiguous, and that there still has NEVER been a gun control law struck down because of the second amendment.

Offline Toad

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #213 on: August 14, 2002, 11:41:13 AM »
Ah, MT.. you're dodging the issue. The 2nd itself stands; it has merely been chipped away at by folks with an agenda that refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

Let common sense be your guide:

1. Look at the writings about personal arms by the very folks that planned and fought the Revolution, wrote the Declaration of Independence, wrote and voted on the Constitution, wrote and voted on the Bill of Rights. That evidence is undeniably clear... to say other wise is foolish.

2. Look at the way Madison presented the 2nd to the House of Represenatives. It couldn't be more clear.

3. Look at the actual 2nd. Only quibblers would argue with the meaning.

The definition of "militia", at that time and at the present time is not in doubt. Further, you have writings of those there at the time that tell you what they meant by "militia". See Richard Henry Lee.

Further, there are definitions of "arms" from that time that are clear.. see Webster.

So, the only folks that would argue this are the folks that would defend the parsing of "is" into a new and twisted meaning; in short, people not worth knowing.

4. Consider Madison's later commentary that he felt the Bill or Rights wasn't really necessary.. that the Constitution already covered these items sufficiently. Madison clearly thought that the Right to Bear Arms was so intrinsic, so universally understood, that it didn't even need to be enumerated. Obviously, he was wrong. Without the Bill of Rights even the things covered by the 1st would have been seriously compromised by now.

5. Look at the State Constitutions of the 46 states that have very similar clauses to the 2nd.

So now you want to "back door it" instead of meeting the issue head-on. To wit: "Some gun control laws have passed. What infringement on the 2nd has been overturned?"

I don't think anyone has made the case that the 2nd hasn't been infringed upon. But that in no way makes the 2nd ambiguous or invalid.

Why can you not yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater if there is no fire? Does this infringement invalidate the entire First Amendment? Of course not.

Doesn't this seem to be "abridging the freedom of speech" guaranteed in the First? So, does this mean the First is "confusing" or "ambiguous? Why haven't these type of restrictions been struck down? Is there room for argument on the First?

I feel only the deliberately obtuse, those with an agenda against firearms can find the 2nd ambiguous given the five items I started with.

But thanks for the interesting discussion (you have to be playing Devil's Advocate here... you're smart enough to evaluate the historical evidence that's available from the founders. I hope. ;) )
« Last Edit: August 14, 2002, 11:44:49 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #214 on: August 14, 2002, 11:54:45 AM »
I have to admit a little bit of DA. This is one issue that I am pretty 'conservative' about. Well not really conservative, like laz, constitutional.

I still see room for debate, and that is the reason this whole discussion started.

The SC held in 1939 that 'Militia' was the key, and that there was no 'individual' right to bear arms. Now that opinion seems to be changing. If there is no room for debate, why has there not been a consensus on this issue even by the courts?

You make a good historical case Toad. I might even agree with your conclusions. There are still many that do not. If it is as simple as you claim, the debate should be limited to the extremes. You and I both know that that is not the case.  

Offline Elfenwolf

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #215 on: August 14, 2002, 12:14:17 PM »
MT It's no use- no matter how hard we try we just can't get around that damn second amendment thingie. On behalf of PETA, however, I thank you for your efforts in abolishing firearms. Unfortunately between Charlton Heston and Toad it looks like the slaughter of our forest creatures will continue anabated.

Although little can be done to save the animals of the forest from 2nd amendment gun nuts, we can shift our focus to another species whose slaughter goes virtually unnoticed by mainstream America and of which the implements of said slaughter are NOT constitutionally guaranteed. I speak of the fish...and the implement of its death, the fishing pole.

We start out asking that fishermen simply register their fishing poles. Innocious enough, in the beginning. Then we make fishermen show ID whenever they buy hooks smaller than a size 8. We call for an outright ban on the Saturday Night Special of fishing poles- the cheaply built, easily concealable Popiel Pocket Fisherman. We make it a felony to posess a fishing pole shorter than 36".

We start an anti-fishing pole media blitz. Maybe have people who have lost an eye from a wayward cast give testimonials, have women speak out who have lost their husbands to the fishing bug. We make it harder to get fishing licenses and ban people from fishing who have ever been convicted of cruelty to animals. We require background checks by the FBI and a mandatory two week "cooling off period" before someone can buy a new fishing pole. We ban fishing from boats except in streams smaller than eight feet wide. We search our kids' school lockers for illegal, or "sawed off," fishing poles. We outlaw posession of fish hooks by minors. Finally we ban fishing poles altogether.

If every one of us liberals could engender the same support for fishing pole controls as we have for gun controls we could eventually stop the slaughter of innocent fish. Hey, we damn near have outlawed most guns and THEY have constitutional protections in place. Imagine what a bunch of us do-gooders could do to ban fishing poles if all we have to deal with is some cracker like Rowland Martin instead of Charlton Heston and the Second Amendment.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2002, 12:16:38 PM by Elfenwolf »

Offline Toad

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #216 on: August 14, 2002, 12:14:34 PM »
The historical evidence leaves no doubt for those that look at it objectively without a pre-determined agenda. End of story. :D

As I was walking this morning, I was thinking about this issue. What it really does affect the way I vote.

Basically, I wasn't impressed with either Bush or Gore... I think they're both far less than this nation deserves. However, I picked Bush basically because of the Supreme Court judge issue.

Who would appoint judges to the SC that would be most likely rule in a strict constructionist,  pro-Constitution manner? To protect not just the 2nd, but ALL of our rights as the founder's intended us to have them?

At that basic level, there was no doubt in my mind that Bush was a better choice in this regard.

As I've said before, the Supremes (IMO) have the greatest power to shape this nation. The President merely proposes. The Congress merely disposes. But the Supremes RULE.

So, when I vote.. I vote by who'll put in SC judges mostly likely to be strict Constructionist.

That's how deeply I view these issues.. not just the 2nd alone.

Moral of the story? If you want my vote... convince me that you're a strict constructionist... or at least more so than the other guy.  :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2002, 12:17:38 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #217 on: August 15, 2002, 08:42:14 AM »
well.... I gotta thank toad for saving me from digging around again in all the federalist papers and such and having to copy it all down...thanks toad...ya got it all straight and VERY well organized.  Glad to see your not just another pretty face.

But... the gist of the thing is.... The 2nd is pretty darn clear to any english speaker out there and much less complex than a lot of other writings that are not scrutinized.   I gotta ask again....  Why is it a left/right issue?   Why would anyone wish to disarm themselves or others or... why would anyone wish to remove this valuble check against big brother?  

Vote from the rooftops.
lazs

Offline Elfenwolf

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #218 on: August 15, 2002, 10:11:23 AM »
Who says it's a left- right issue?? Wsnpr may be described as "leftist" yet he owns firearms and is an avid shooter. I've been called "leftist" yet I own several guns and come from a hunting-shooting background. MT is a so-called leftist and he owns guns also. Lazs, leftists, rightsts, whatever, I doubt any of us are opposed to the safe and responsible ownership of firearms.

Where the difference is that us Leftists try to prevent whackos from getting their hands on guns. We feel felons have forfeited their right to own guns- the Right feels gun ownership is a right that ALL have. Us from the Left are concerned with drive-by shootings and we want to get guns off the street. The Right doesn't have a problem with black on black crime and, in fact, it was the right wing Iran Contra guys that armed the street gangs in the first place.

The Left wants background checks, mandatory gun safety classes and gun locks to go with every firearm purchase- the Right thinks ANY person should have full and immediate access to whatever firearm we may desire regardless of our intent. They oppose background checks and, in fact, the Right WANTS people shooting each other so they have an excuse to continue taking away our rights.

So you see, Lazs, the Left and the Right want the same thing, basically- the right of people to keep and bear arms. Unfortunately the Right wants to arm our criminals and nut burgers while the Left wants to keep our streets safe. Understand now bud? :)

Offline Toad

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #219 on: August 15, 2002, 08:43:06 PM »
Yer trolling again, Elf? Shame.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfenwolf

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #220 on: August 15, 2002, 08:59:21 PM »
Sorry Toad, I'm bored.

Offline Toad

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #221 on: August 15, 2002, 09:14:39 PM »
S'ok... I am too!  ;)

But try a diver next time.. the top water just doesn't work as well lately.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfenwolf

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #222 on: August 15, 2002, 10:39:04 PM »
LOL Yeah, these waters are getting fished out. Anyone have a link to Bigweek? I've never been there.

Offline lazs2

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #223 on: August 16, 2002, 09:00:36 AM »
I don't think the insane or children or people currently incarcerated should have firearms but everyone else should be free to have any firearm they wish.  What you do with em is the issue..  unlike the left... I can't figure out intent.   It really is that simple.   anything else and you end up with a bunch of silly hard to interpret laws..  sorta like we got now.   A "background" check should be simply.... are you insane?   are you underage?  If you are standing at the counter then youy are not currently incarcerated.   If the person standing at the counter is too dangerous to be trusted with a firearm.... then what the hell is he doing out of prison?
lazs

Offline midnight Target

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Charlton Heston's speech
« Reply #224 on: August 16, 2002, 09:50:46 AM »
Try AGW Elfie. I've had some good success there. Seems there's this guy named jedi............