F4F-4

[Turbot]

Originally posted by Widewing
It won't be long before we hear the term "Wildcat Dweeb".

Nah they already have a name for em, Ack weenies

Seriously you guys aren't giving the field/cv defensive guns nearly enough credit in this discussion.  So, before you go raising the darn thing to sainthood, lets consider the environment it typically flies in and the fact that AA cannot recieve credit for kills.

[thrila]

Widewing i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say.  If i saw a lone f4f/fm2 i would definately engage it and kill it, yes!  But if there were multiple cons in my vicinty- the FM2 or the F4F wouldn't be a priority target.

i'm not doing bad with the spit1 at all (practising for the BoB:) )  Aslong as you get close those .303's rip them apart.

[udet]

I engaged in a dogfight with a Zero, and even though he outmaneuvered me I was on his tail most of the time.

[Dnil]

I was remembering from an article in one of the wings of fame volumes on the 61.  I need to reread to see again.  Good stuff in the article.  I just never thought the 61 saw that much action, guess it did

[Angus]

Just took the FM-2  for a turn test with the Spit V.
The Spit turned better, but the difference was not very big.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


On the contrary... your FM2 has never met my Spit.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

I noticed that you have very recently spent some time flying the FM-2, and typically, did well with it (11/2). What was your impression?

I found its instantaneous turn rate near corner to be astounding. This, IMHO, gives it an initial advantage over the SpitV. However, the FM-2 bleeds energy faster than the Spitfire (F4F-4 is worse with its inadequate power loading), and consequently, the longer the fight goes on, the more the advantage swings back to the Spitfire. That same energy bleed can be used to advantage should the fight evolve into a scissors. Pull power off on a Wildcat, and it slows dramatically. I find that inducing an overshoot is easy enough, but speed recovery is a slow process. Therefore, it is very important not to miss a shooting opportunity.

In terms of firepower, those four .50 caliber guns are surprisingly effective. I set convergence at 650 yards, which has paid off since many of the targets are considerably faster and long-range shots are more commonplace with Wildcats. Speaking of guns, the six gun installation in the F4F-4 is extremely deadly, for some reason, seemingly moreso than the same setup in the P-51D or F4U.

Anyway, I was wondering what your thoughts were.

My regards,

Widewing

[whels]

Originally posted by Widewing


I noticed that you have very recently spent some time flying the FM-2, and typically, did well with it (11/2). What was your impression?

I found its instantaneous turn rate near corner to be astounding. This, IMHO, gives it an initial advantage over the SpitV. However, the FM-2 bleeds energy faster than the Spitfire (F4F-4 is worse with its inadequate power loading), and consequently, the longer the fight goes on, the more the advantage swings back to the Spitfire. That same energy bleed can be used to advantage should the fight evolve into a scissors. Pull power off on a Wildcat, and it slows dramatically. I find that inducing an overshoot is easy enough, but speed recovery is a slow process. Therefore, it is very important not to miss a shooting opportunity.

In terms of firepower, those four .50 caliber guns are surprisingly effective. I set convergence at 650 yards, which has paid off since many of the targets are considerably faster and long-range shots are more commonplace with Wildcats. Speaking of guns, the six gun installation in the F4F-4 is extremely deadly, for some reason, seemingly moreso than the same setup in the P-51D or F4U.

Anyway, I was wondering what your thoughts were.

My regards,

Widewing

ive always said the F6 50s are more leath then the p51/F4U/P47.
and it seems they put 4 of them in the FM2. these 4 50s kill
easier then the 4 on 51b or the 6 on 5d and f4us.


whels

[Shuckins]

Widewing,

I agree with most of your statements about the F6F/F4F comparison.  The one statement that I disagree with is the one about the speed differential not being substantial.  That would be true, if you consider a difference of "only" 50 mph in top speed to be trivial.  The difference in AH would be even greater if the flight model of the F6F wasn't porked.  Most sources for the Hellcat's top speed routinely repeat the erroneous flight data recorded before the air-speed system on the Hellcat was redesigned to give a more accurate reading.  There are a number of sources, reliable sources, that give a corrected top speed for the F6F-5 as being over 405 mph.  Even Chance-Vought, Grumman's top competitor for Navy contracts, recorded the -5 Hellcat's top speed as being over 400 mph.  I recently saw a reprint of Jane's Fighters of WW II that listed the -5's top speed as being 405 mph.

I find it extremely difficult to get the Hellcat's top speed above 360 mph in level flight in Aces High.  It's flight model is almost 60 mph slower than the similarly powered P-47, an aircraft that is just as big dimensionally and weighs a ton more.  While the P-47 is undoubtedly faster at high altitude (near 30,000 ft) because of its supercharging, the Hellcat is definitely capable of reaching 400 mph at its rated altitude of 20,000 feet.

HTC has done a tremendous job developing Aces High.  However, the requests that I and others have made that the F6F's flight model be upgraded seem to have gone unheeded.  But, I'll keep asking.  Politely.


Regards, Shuckins

[F4UDOA]

Schuckins,

HTC is slicker than you think. Pay no attention to your speedometer. Take the F6F offline and test it's top speed on the digital speed of the film viewer. It is approximately 400MPH at 19K.

HTC does some sneaky things like modeling the pitot tube error in speed at alt. Actually all of the AH planes read slighty off at high alt.

Later

[Shuckins]

F4UDOA,

No kiddin'?   I gotta try that.  


Regards, Shuckins

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Widewing
Poor performance eh? Then explain how a no-talent duffer like me manages this.....

Ut Oh! That puts me several ranks below "no-talent duffer." Is three toed sloth pilot a category? I think I can just about hold my own with the AI drones who fly in circles....

- Seagoon

[Toad]

Originally posted by Widewing


In terms of firepower, those four .50 caliber guns are surprisingly effective.... Speaking of guns, the six gun installation in the F4F-4 is extremely deadly, for some reason, seemingly moreso than the same setup in the P-51D or F4U.
Widewing

A perception I share.

Does anyone have info on the distance between the right and left outermost guns on these aircraft? My thinking being that if the "cone" is narrower at the rear it's going to result in a tighter "pattern" throughout the range.

IE: If a P-51 had say.. 18 feet between outermost guns and an F4F had maybe 12 then the "cone of fire" would be narrower all the way right?

Thus you get better "convergence" shots?

Or am I out to lunch here?

[Shuckins]

The cone of fire on the FM-2 has to be narrower because of the overall smaller dimensions of the aircraft as compared to the P-51 and other fighters.  

The Fm-2 has a propeller diameter of only 9'9" compared to a diameter of over 13' for the Hellcat.  Since almost all American fighters had their weapons mounted just outside of the propeller tips, this indicates that the cone of fire of the Wildcat was narrower than many of it's contemporaries.  Being mounted closer to the centerline of the aircraft lessened the convergence problems associated with the wing mounted .50 calibers of the other fighters, improving materially the "on-target" capability of the FM-2.


Regards, Shuckins