Author Topic: for Toad (Read 839 times)

Toad · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2002, 02:32:49 PM »

Easymo, check my sig block. It's been that way for a couple of years I think.

I'm not changing or saying anything different than I've always said.

Basically some things are pretty realistic and some things aren't. Try for as much realism as the technology allows. Make concessions where necessary due to technology limitations.

However, I'm never going to be in favor of making things artificially difficult simply because a small minority don't find it "challenging" enough to suit them.

I'll be happy to elaborate if you're still confused.

Hussein · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2002, 02:41:21 PM »

"At the point nearing imminent combat, most of the aircraft were designed to be "fought" without any unnecessary procedures. You armed up the guns, dropped the tanks, set the mixture when you got to the point that you were about to engage and then you just flew. No other procedures that required hands flying madly about the cockpit."

There were exceptions though, for example P38 was famous for its quirky fuel tank switch and overall controls. It was highly criticised for being too complicated in a combat situation, reportedly many novice pilots died before they found the correct combat setup when they were bounced by LW.

If I recall right, just last year a highly experienced historic flight pilot crashed and died because he switched the fuel tanks wrong in the landing.

easymo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 18, 2002, 02:42:51 PM »

Well, I am less confused now. You are just like the rest of us. The only "reality" you care about are the things that interest you. They are no more valid then the things that interest me.

As far as technological limitations go. How much technology does it take to delete the auto take off button. Or the easymode button.

We just seem to be chasing each other around the same bush,at any rate. Being artificially easy, is no more valid than being artificially hard.

Toad · « **Reply #18 on:** August 18, 2002, 02:55:33 PM »

Well, easy, would you support "neutering" the guns like they did in WB? So we could all enjoy the fights longer? Cut the range down to say 500 yds and cut the leath in half?

That to me is an example of something I wouldn't be in favor of, simply because it alters a "reality" that we do have the PC technology to mimic and it materially affects the fighting and ACM.

Now, you find "auto-takeoff" as an example of an invalid change to reality. And you're right. Even today, there's no "auto-takeoff" mode on the autopilots out there. Clearly a concession for ease of play. Now, tell me how it affects the fighting and ACM? Unless it makes vultching even easier?

I'm not sure what you mean by "easymode button". Are you talking Combat Trim here? Where do you want to start? With the fact that many of these aircraft did not have three axis trim? That almost NONE of them had powered trim? That trim merely relieves stick pressure in RL... stick pressure that we don't have in AH? That even you would admit that in RL an aircraft could fly and fight with all trim tabs removed and the only difference would be that the pilot would may.. possibly... might... momentarily experience higher stick forces if he usually trimmed during air combat?

I'm in favor of "artificially easy" where it doesn't and shouldn't provide an advantage in winning a fight. Autopilot for example. Auto Takeoff for another. Use of autopilot or auto takeoff doesn't help you win a fight.

I'm not in favor of "artificially hard" where it alters reality beyond what PC technology can simulate fairly well. "Gun neutering" is a prime example.

So I still don't think were a bit alike on this topic.

easymo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 18, 2002, 03:12:32 PM »

I use CT all the time. It has enabled me to win a lot of fights. I don't stay in it, of course. I use it as an insta-trim button. There are a few applications where it becomes, very much, an easymode button. If it worked like auto climb, (gradually moving to the selected position)I would have less to say about it. But, hit the button sometime. It is magically instantaneous.

Yes, you can argue that trim had little to do with real combat. But, in that case there should be no trim buttons at all. And, we can all move to Fighter Ace, and save 5 bucks a month

BTW. I have been at a base, where the ack was down. And I was getting vulched. Auto take off allowed me to keep an eye on incoming fighters while upping. So saying it has no effect is not true either

Toad · « **Reply #20 on:** August 18, 2002, 04:58:02 PM »

At the risk of restarting the circular logic......

Quote

Originally posted by easymo
I use CT all the time. It has enabled me to win a lot of fights. I don't stay in it, of course. I use it as an insta-trim button. There are a few applications where it becomes, very much, an easymode button.

Why should we need it at all? Isn't full control deflection always (OK, possibly not at the extreme edge of the envelope... possibly) available to the pilot, real or virtual, whether or not the aircraft is in trim?

If you have full deflection available, what does trim do for you in hard maneuvering? Other than relieve stick load at the cost of moving your hand off the throttle quadrant.. .a much more important location and control.

You shouldn't die just because you're mis-trimmed... other reasons, yeah... but mis-trim? Nah.

Quote

Originally posted by easymo
Yes, you can argue that trim had little to do with real combat.

[/b]

I do. It didn't.

Quote

Originally posted by easymo
But, in that case there should be no trim buttons at all.

Or it shouldn't really be necessary to use them to win a fight.

If one were to remove the autopilot, they'd be used in their traditional, correct role. I could go for that. No autopilot, trim only on the aircraft axis that actually had it. Trim use not required for fighting since it only relieves stick pressure; full control deflection is available anyway. Trim used mainly to trim aircraft for static condition like cruise or climb.

It'd be worth it to hear the wailing. I can live without A/P... I don't have to leave the machine to smoke or whatever and I know how to trim it to last long enough to get a beer.

Quote

Originally posted by easymo
BTW. ...getting vulched. ....So saying it has no effect is not true either

Ok, will you go for "nearly minimal effect" or maybe "basically unnoticeable effect" or something like that?

easymo · « **Reply #21 on:** August 18, 2002, 05:12:38 PM »

For my last comment on the matter. I will refer you to my first post. Like all the other "vets" I have heard how good a sim was going to be before. And it turned out to be WW2OL. Or didn't turn out at all. But, If TK/TR makes it to the net. They would have what I would prefer. If a plane had no trim, so be it, If it had just rudder trim, than put that in. What ever it had in RL it should have in the sim. That would be my choice, if I had one.

Toad · « **Reply #22 on:** August 18, 2002, 05:20:31 PM »

As long as the trim had no real effect on who won an ACM engagement, I'd agree.

Daff · « **Reply #23 on:** August 18, 2002, 05:22:03 PM »

"If one were to remove the autopilot, they'd be used in their traditional, correct role."

That's what they've done in WW2OL and you know what...you quickly learn to trim for level, climb, what have ya.

"Problem with trim in any game is that there is no control feedback. You don't feel any pressure and the stick stays centered no matter what."

A couple of years ago, I bought a forcefeed back joystick and I used it for less than a week, mainly because of trim.
You'd set the attitude, try to trim it out, just to have the stick trying to center, rather than relieve the forces in it's current position...and I hated it.

Daff

Toad · « **Reply #24 on:** August 18, 2002, 05:28:56 PM »

Agree, Daff. Learning to trim is no biggie. The A/P is clearly a convenience tool.

Creamo · « **Reply #25 on:** August 18, 2002, 06:16:26 PM »

So you would be in favor of spawning in the air, like say EAW servers did, right near the action, just prior to the real important gameplay issue, 'acm and the fight', right?

Kieran · « **Reply #26 on:** August 18, 2002, 07:33:12 PM »

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as I knew it going in. Play time for me is in short supply, so yeah, getting into the fight faster is better.

You'd better believe I use time acceleration in Il-2.

Hangtime · « **Reply #27 on:** August 18, 2002, 08:15:27 PM »

..after much to-and fro; Godzilla fainally sez 'the hell with it.." gets around behind, and stuffs it up his ass...

Toad · « **Reply #28 on:** August 18, 2002, 09:12:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Creamo
So you would be in favor of spawning in the air,

Are you talking ta me?

Nope. Didn't like that in FA or EAW.

Altitude is a huge part of the ACM equation. Don't think there should be an "instant altitude" button, particularly in a 24/7 persistent arena environment.

Now, do I think we need to exactly recreate the engine start sequence for the P-51D?

*********
Starting Procedure

Have prop pulled through, with ignition switch OFF, if plane has been idle more than 2 hours.

Generator and battery switch ON, unless battery cart is being used, then battery switch OFF.

Open throttle 1 inch. Mixture control in IDLE CUT-OFF. Propeller control in INCREASED RPM.

Supercharger switch in AUTOMATIC.

Carburetor air control in RAM AIR.

Turn ignition switch to BOTH.

Fuel shut-off valve ON and fuel selector valve to fuselage tank (if full), or Left Main tank if fuselage tank not used.

Fuel booster pump on NORMAL, check for 8-12 pounds of fuel pressure.

Prime engine 3 to 4 shots if cold, 1 to 2 if warm.

Clear the prop.

Lift guard on starter switch and press switch to START.

Caution in use of starter not to overheat.

As engine starts, move mixture control to AUTO RICH.

If engine does not fire after several turns, continue priming.

WARNING: When engine is not firing, mixture control should be in IDLE CUT-OFF.

Warm engine at approximately 1300 RPM.

Check for constant oil pressure. If no oil pressure or low pressure after 30 seconds, SHUT DOWN engine.

Check all instruments for proper readings.

Check hydraulic system by lowering and raising flaps; loading 800-850 pounds and unloading at 1050-1100 pounds.

Check communication equipment for operation.

Uncage all gyro instruments.

Check both LEFT and RIGHT MAIN and FUSELAGE fuel systems by rotating fuel selector valve with booster pump switch in EMERGENCY.

Check for 14-19 psi. If drop tanks are installed, check fuel flow by rotating fuel selector control.

*********

My answer is "no".

I can understand that some folks would think that is just too cool for shoes and I hope someday there's another game that will provide them with such titillation.

I just want to be in a different game entirely and out of range when they "spasm".

Hangtime · « **Reply #29 on:** August 18, 2002, 09:53:29 PM »

Hooo boy... saw that one commin.