Author Topic: for Toad  (Read 841 times)

Offline easymo

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« on: August 12, 2002, 07:35:50 PM »
I did a poor job of expressing what I was getting at, but this guys got the point.  His answer:


Dinger
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  posted 08-12-2002 05:55 PM                
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Well, terminology: it's not the "FM" that's at stake. We can measure each one of those against real-life performance.
with trim the problem is the interface.
And,y eah, you're right, trim on a spring-loaded stick works nothing like it does in real life. Nor does your monitor function well as a windshield.
In cases like these, you've got to find an analogous function. That doesn't mean yelling "it's all relative" and throwing things out the window. What it means is that when you go for an analogous solution, you want results like:
A. Can we make the information available to the pilot as close to what would be available to a RL pilot in the same circumstances?
B. How close can we make the pilot's actions/workload necessary to complete those actions to that of real life?


I mean this is a simulation. We don't have an engine in front of us, nor do most of us have the cool nobs and levers to control a real engine.
So, let's take startup on a multiengined prop. Sim A has startup and shutdown controlled by a single keypress, and the all engines fire right up and build up oil pressure. Sim B requires you to set the fuel mixture, the mags, lord knows what else, then fire the starter, bring the engine to idle and let the oil pressure build. Then you got to do it for the other engine.
(you can tell I know very little about flight)
Both sims can have identical Flight Models/Engine Models, but the analogical control process for Sim B is clearly superior.

So too with trim. If trim is something that requires little thought for a pilot to do, then it should require little thought in the sim. If a plane is without trim because the stick forces are light enough, and a pilot can actively (and thoughtlessly) hold the plane in trim, then we should have that ability (even if our sticks are springloaded). If a RL pilot is strong enough to pull back ont he stick and get maximum elevator deflection regardless of trim setting, then we should too.


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Blacky
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  posted 08-12-2002 08:31 PM                
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I can live with that . Like most of what I have read about TK, this sounds very promising.
For me, it does not matter how accurate the FM is, if they way that you interact with it is pure fiction.

Offline AKDejaVu

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for Toad
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2002, 07:43:20 PM »
This seems to pretty much be in agreement with everything toad has said on the subject.

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Offline easymo

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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2002, 07:51:35 PM »
I don't see how. (more misunderstanding).  If AH has a fictionalized interface. One is no more valid than the other, which was my main point.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2002, 08:04:03 PM »
Ok, first the disclaimer. I have no beef with you; overall I think you're one of the more squared away guys on the board.

Now, my commentary on what this guy said, Trim first.


"So too with trim. If trim is something that requires little thought for a pilot to do, then it should require little thought in the sim."

Any pilot with much experience at all will tell you that trim, particularly in modern aircraft with "powered trim" (ie you just move a switch) on the stick becomes so ingrained that it requires no conscious thought. The stick starts to feel a little heavy and you click some trim in.

The WW2 birds are a bit different because most of them had manual trim wheels, requiring you to move your hand off the throttle quadrant and turn a knob.

Nonetheless, all trim does is relieve stick pressure. Thus is a WW2 pilot was holding uncomfortable stick pressure for an extended period of time.. long enough to make it worth trimming (extended climb for example) he'd trim. If it is a "transitory" pressure, like adding back stick in a 360 degree steep turn for example, it's just easier to hold the back pressure because it is absolutely "no thing".


 "If a plane is without trim because the stick forces are light enough, and a pilot can actively (and thoughtlessly) hold the plane in trim, then we should have that ability (even if our sticks are springloaded). If a RL pilot is strong enough to pull back ont he stick and get maximum elevator deflection regardless of trim setting, then we should too."

You don't "hold the plane in trim". You hold the stick wherever it needs to be in order to achieve the desired flight path. Trim has nothing to do with flight path. Trim would merely relieve some or most of the stick pressure required to achieve the desired flight path.

Once again, for transitory pressures (like in a whirling, swirling dogfight) are generally ignored by most pilots. Another example is a loop; most pilots trim for their entry speed and don't change trim throughout the maneuver although stick pressure will vary greatly as they loop.

I assure you that except at the extreme edge of the flight envelope, a RL WW2 pilot is strong enough to get maximum elevator deflection regardless of trim setting in almost any WW2 aircraft. That is a DESIGN FUNCTION. Would you want your pilots going out to fight in an aircraft that had restricted controls that limited their ability to maneuver? Of course not; you'd design in some mechanical advantage  (higher seat, taller stick.. leverage)or alter the overall design of the aircraft as necessary.



"Sim A has startup and shutdown controlled by a single keypress, and the all engines fire right up and build up oil pressure.

Sim B requires you to set the fuel mixture, the mags, lord knows what else, then fire the starter, bring the engine to idle and let the oil pressure build. Then you got to do it for the other engine.
 
Both sims can have identical Flight Models/Engine Models, but the analogical control process for Sim B is clearly superior."

I'm sorry Easymo, but this is merely a value judgement. THIS guys (and undoubtedly others) finds the "detail" added to Sim B makes the sim "clearly superior".

Uh.. no. Not for all of us. What it does is make the sim slightly more complex, slightly more detailed. And to no real purpose, IMO. Engine start is not a "combat maneuver". I've started LOTS of engines; I can unequivocably say engine start was never the high point of any of my flights. In fact, it sort of delays getting to the fun part. I can understand where the Microsoft Flight Simulator crowd may think this is just the berries, however.

One could argue that a detailed process would change the dynamic in a "vultch" situation during a field capture or something. Probably true. The change would be the people would RARELY up under vultch conditions.. which is pretty realistic. Don't know if it's good for gameplay as lots of folks like to vultch. It would make field capture much fasted for sure because it gives a huge advantage to those capping the field. Is this a good thing? Bet you can get arguments on both sides.

You can extend this logic on both sides throughout the flight up to the point of preparing for combat. That is, some folks will love the drudgery of doing every little thing in the checklist and others will find it a totally unnecessary routine that bores them when they could be getting a beer out of the 'fridge.

At the point nearing imminent combat, most of the aircraft were designed to be "fought" without any unnecessary procedures. You armed up the guns, dropped the tanks, set the mixture when you got to the point that you were about to engage and then you just flew. No other procedures that required hands flying madly about the cockpit.

For the most part it was one hand on the throttle quadrant and one hand on the stick. Keep it simple. Give your guy every advantage to win by not complicating the engagement.

Some aircraft did this better than others of course.

So, in closing, one man's "detail" is another man's "anal obsession". Somewhere in the middle there is a game that a wide spectrum of folks can enjoy.

Right now, I think AH is that game. It's damn well balanced and thought out.



« Last Edit: August 12, 2002, 08:08:16 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2002, 08:14:47 PM »
I have not started many engine, but let tell you, one of my highlights is just starting the generator!  Because then I KNOW I'm going flying!  :D

Offline easymo

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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2002, 08:33:14 PM »
I agree that AH is the best available. IMHO, due mostly to the lack of competition.  But realistic or not,(i believe not) trim has a large effect on combat in AH.  One of my favorite tricks has been to intentionally cross trim when I want to slow quickly. Then to trim out to extend (run away). Simply, it works. My argument is that if we have went this far, then its just a game anyway.  And the old system was just as valid.

As far as a problem between us.  It never even occurred to me.  We are just arguing flight sims in the time honored manner :)

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2002, 08:48:05 PM »
Easymo-

Wouldn't it be easier to cross-control without trimming to slow down? That's what I do, anyway...

Offline easymo

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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2002, 09:03:38 PM »
easier to stay on target, my way ;)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2002, 09:18:28 PM »
..you dont tug on supermans cape..

It's all very subtle, Kieran. An abrupt cross control reveals intent.. I used to look for cues like that and when I guessed right I was able to counter. Some guys have this sim so mapped out mentally they can anticipate a move, and counter it before anybody even makes a move. In fact the really good guys in the sim can blow yer bellybutton outta your incorrectly modeled chair before you even log into the game.

.. you don't spit inta the wind..

Yah gotta admit, it's kinda funny in it's way.. step outside and look at us.. we got guys here who get so into this game it becomes a life.. hell they even build 'cockpits' otta cardboard and plywood, paint 'em up and crawl into 'em to fly 6 hours a night. (hi, my name is hangtime and I've been clean 3 days 9 hours an 19 minutes now..)

..you don't pull the mask of the 'ol lone ranger..

Other folks hugely enjoy a cerebral esoteric argument about what frame of mind the developer musta been in when he decided how to model whatever it is thats got the gobs of ill informed clueless whiners on the BBS all wound up in the first place.

..and yah don't mess around wit slim..

Then there's Toad 'n Easymo. Kinda like Godzilla an Rodan. Fun ta watch, but ruff on Tokyo.

:D
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...at home, or abroad.

Offline easymo

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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2002, 09:24:11 PM »
"In fact the really good guy in the sim can blow yer bellybutton outta your incorrectly modeled chair before you even log into the game. "

LOL. I told Mr. easymo this chair was porked.

Offline Regurge

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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2002, 09:38:57 PM »
Anyone who is doing manuevers with trim and can't do them just as well with regular stick and rudder needs to adjust their setup.

The more Toad talks about how trim should be the more I'm convinced AH has it spot on, given our level of PC technology.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2002, 10:48:39 PM »
Problem with trim in any game is that there is no control feedback. You don't feel any pressure and the stick stays centered no matter what. If anything, it's a visual rather than tactile cue.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2002, 01:23:07 PM »
This is why AH is what it is.  Anyone that says different is selling something.

I visited from AW durin beta.... Found it hell ... was lucky to get off the ground, once up i couldn't hit anything... and then when it came to landings I always broke my gear... So went back to aw +) ...
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2002, 01:58:11 PM »
What? That it isn't "just like Real Life"?

That they make playbility concessions?

Just remember this: Difficulty is not necessarily directly related to "realism".  That's a mistake an awful lot of people seem to make.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2002, 02:16:25 PM »
Ok .  You have me baffled. One second your holding up the holy bible of realism. The next your tossing out playability concessions. That was MY point from the beginning; its just a game.  You can make it an adult game, requiring some skill. Or a kiddie game.  Either way realism don't inter into it.