Author Topic: Galland, Marseille and Hartmann  (Read 1037 times)

Offline garrido

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« on: August 10, 2001, 03:39:00 AM »
That opinion you of these pilots Galland (102 Kill's), Marseille (152 Kill's), Hartmann (352 Kill's) , their Kill's, the way to obtain them, its form have to fly, etc.

Salute

SUPONGO

Offline Duckwing6

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 324
      • http://www.pink.at
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2001, 03:48:00 AM »
They were freaking uber.. the 109 is a bloody P I G

Offline Creamo

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5976
      • http://www.fatchicksinpartyhats.com
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »
Luck, alot of Allied rookies/targets, 30mm, skill, and could pry see very well.

Offline AKcurly

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1509
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2001, 04:33:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Duckwing6:
They were freaking uber.. the 109 is a bloody P I G

But Hartman walked home, what was it ... 8 times?  Yeah the guy got 300 odd kills, but only at the expense of getting his butt waxed 8 times.

AKcurly

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2001, 06:04:00 AM »
Marsaille killed with an average of 15 bullets. That is 15 bullets from the single MG151/20 ans 2 MG17 7.92mm in his 109F4 combined. Yes the LW mechanics counted after each sortie.

Offline Duckwing6

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 324
      • http://www.pink.at
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2001, 06:33:00 AM »
still 352 is a pretty good streak dont'cha think Curly ? especially considering the single life arena these dudes fought in .. and no icons...

and especially considering what a PIG the 109 is

Offline Westy MOL

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 902
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2001, 06:40:00 AM »
"They were freaking uber.. the 109 is a bloody P I G"

 No plane is a P I G when there are no icons. Well excpet for the Brewster Bufaloe  ;)

Westy

Offline Creamo

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5976
      • http://www.fatchicksinpartyhats.com
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
Marsaille killed with an average of 15 bullets. That is 15 bullets from the single MG151/20 ans 2 MG17 7.92mm in his 109F4 combined. Yes the LW mechanics counted after each sortie.

Oh man...heh.

Incredible. Aircraft mechanics rewrite history.

Turn up the 109 MG's HTC, and quick! Its true, true, TRUE!

Offline Serapis

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 269
      • http://www.keithreid.com
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2001, 07:58:00 AM »
The General practice, except for Marsaille who was an exceptional deflection shooter, was to get in close until an unsuspecting enemy filled the canopy (easy in Hartmann's case give his exceptional eyesight that allowed him to set up the attack) fire a quick burst then keep moving on. At that range the weapons package didn't matter as it doesn't matter in AH at that range.

It also helped (a lot) that the allies lacked (early in the war) the sound tactical doctrin learned in Spain (finger four),the  experience early in the war the LW gained in Spain (Galland, etc.) and that the Russians lacked quality aircraft early in the war, leadership (due to Stalin's purges), training (not seen as particularly necessiary vs. numbers and sacrafice), and confidence/agression (for obvious reasons noted above) until about 1944 or so.

The Kill tallies on the Easter front are exceptional, but reflect a target-rich environment with the above handicaps in place until 1944 or so (maybe late 43). The scores on the Western front tend to reflect more of a longer service career with ea. pilot. Give the allied aces a couple of thousand combat sorties and you would see  the same figures -- if they survived.

It should also be noted that while the LW was outnumbered in general from late 1943 on, they at least enjoyed numerical parity through 1943 and they typically managed to maintain "local" air superority up until the darkest days on 1945 -- just not the numbers to establish superiority on a whole front.

Still, it's clear theat these were exceptional fighter pilots who enjoyed significant opportunities to hone their skills.

Charon

Good book on the subject:Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mike Spick.

[ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Marsaille killed with an average of 15 bullets. That is 15 bullets from the single MG151/20 ans 2 MG17 7.92mm in his 109F4 combined. Yes the LW mechanics counted after each sortie.

bloody "untermench" if you compare him to René Fonck  :D

15 bullet == 3 planes for him   :eek:  :eek:
Have a look to : http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/france/fonck.html

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »
Their numbers are not all perfectly solid though.
Marseille reported 17 victories in a single day against the RAF/DAF. The British lost 8 aircraft in the area that day, and on the home front only one.
Have been doing a little research on LW claims on RAF aircraft vs. the actual RAF reports. Sometimes they are accurate, sometimes double and sometimes total nonsense (1 damaged aircraft successfully RTB becomes a few destroyed).
I met the old LW ace Gunther Rall (3rd on the list with 275 kills) last May, and over a cup of coffee I could not resist teasing him a bit with these numbers. He was firm on the opinion that they were absolutely solid.
Well, solid or slightly inaccurate, their numbers are high. Ralls as well as the others approach to combat, especially in the latest years of the war may explain how they got so many kills. Simple reason: plenty of targets, many of those russians with either primitive planes or little experience, and finally, LW survive tactics, for many of the best looked after themselves, - a dead pilot shoots no enemy planes down. Rall: "We would not attack unless we were at advantage"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »
Creamo thats really unneccesary.

Offline lazs1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 996
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
well... sometimes even the mighty LW may have gotten a little "confussed"  Marsaills kills are in question as a few equalled 2 pissant .30 cal kills..  hartman claimed 5 mustangs in one sortie when recorsd show only two lost the whole day and one not even in the area..  Saki claimed his life and death struggle with 6 Hellcats all gangbanging him to no avail but no hellcats were in the area that day.  Bomber gunners got even more excitable on claiming.  

All countries did it.  Mostly in the best of faith and the best pilots (such as those above) were still outstanding.  
lazs

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2001, 08:34:00 AM »
Nothing wrong with the Mausers. If you think there's something wrong, you aren't hitting with all the rounds hitting the same area.

I guarantee you, the Mausers are as lethal as they should be.
-SW

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
Galland, Marseille and Hartmann
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2001, 11:32:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SWulfe:

I guarantee you, the Mausers are as lethal as they should be.
-SW

You guarantee me?. fine. Where is the proof?  :)