Fun in the MA

[Rude]

Guys....it's just the hand the general population has been dealt. It is by design, what is done. Now some of the older more experienced players have adapted and found niches where they can have their own fun, but overall, this is the world we play in.

I understand what you're saying Lazs, but what would prevent a large horde of players upping from fields placed closer together and overwhelming the other field as the do currently. Those midway fights that you spoke of are the most fun, but wouldn't the chance for that to happen more often occur, if fields were placed further apart so as to allow the attacked country time to mount a defence and hit the attackers enroute instead of on top of their own field? Just a thought.

Personally guys....it is what it is and I really don't think it can be changed in any significant way....if it could, why have we not seen this change over the past 12 years or so?

For some silly reason, I think the answer lies in the terrain design...seems to me that the terrain alone can modify how we all do our business.

Just a thought...personally, I'm happy doin what makes me happy, blowin up bad guys and hangin with my buds, all for the low low price of an oil change:)

[Toad]

I can ignore the pleas to "join my mission" and "big mission in the planner, join now" right up until the Generals start using Caps Lock.

Then I find that a mind-numbing trance comes over me and although I will myself to resist (no... must.... not..  argggh.. join!) I am powerless to stop my hand from making the mouse click in the map room.

I think HT should disable Caps Lock.

*******

But seriously now folks. I don't join the big raids because there's never enough meat on the table for everyone as someone pointed out.

One still gets involved in those circle jerks anyway when furball numbers shift or a big raid comes into a place that you are already furring.

When I SEE a big nme raid coming I usually fight the first wave but after the first self sacrifice it's time to move on. As has been pointed out, it's awfully hard to have an effect on 40  aircraft that mean to take your base.

Problem is people do what they want to do. I'm hoping the Mission Theater thins things out a bit; I think it will if they don't futz with the normal arena settings in search of some more manly form of a PC based game that fakes real-life WW2 air combat or whatever.

If that fails, maybe a little map experimentation is in order but that will be tricky too. Lot of trial and error went into what we have now. Be lots more to change it successfully. Might be worth it though.

[Ripsnort]

Toad, you need to join one of my missions.  I prefer to hit a target that has a HUGE red bar over the field, and alot of times we just do fighter sweeps in those areas.  Plenty to eat for everyone Unfortunately, I rarely get in the MA anymore these days...

[Midnight]

I agree with Wotan.

No matter how many you kill, you can never kill them all.

A typical 412th combat mission consists of finding a large group of enemy attacking one of our fields. We fly to the field they are taking off from and start shooting them down as they are en-route to their target.

This works out great, about only for a short while. Soon, the enemy is coming up in fast climbing fighters with low fuel. You can only shoot them down so many times before you end up running low on ammo and loosing E advantage. Then it's just a matter of the numbers.

I can remember one time, I shot down the same guys two or three times each.

In the MA, there is really no sense of going out, completing a mission objective (like shooting down all of the attackers) and then flying home after victory. It's more like, go out, shoot down as many as you can, and then RUN LIKE HELL to try and get away from the horde.

But the running away is the same old story. There is usually one or two squad mates that can't get out, so the rest of the squad goes back to help them. As you go into to help, five more high, fast and fresh enemy fighters are diving in right behind you. And the worst part about it...

You usually end up getting killed by the same guy you already shot down 2x that mission.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu
[B
Its simply a race to see who can capture more.
[/B]

That's correct.  The reason being that the offense always has the advantage - they know where the action is going to be because they're the ones creating the action.  Its not just air-to-air kills that score points, its dropping bombs and shooting rockets to eliminate a hangar, a town, a carrier, whatever.  If defenders come up, they'll probably be at an alt disadvantage because the offense would've upped first.  

There are some ways to counter the advantage, such as flying the LA-7, or manning an Ostwind or M-16, but you never really know where the strike is aimed until its more than half-way to target.

The only way to write a mission to counter a strike mission is to write a fighter-only mission.  And if the enemy's offense never materializes, then that defensive mission just became a gang-bang fighter sweep mission over whatever enemy airfield has a counter in it, and even then, there's little chance that you'll be the one getting the kill.

From a planning perspective, there's really no enthusiasm for a defensive fighter mission because there's no real guarantee that you'll find something to shoot.  If you're going to write a mission, might as well plan one that'll have a definite target.

[Turbot]

Bring aircraft factories to aces high.  Blow up factory X then no plane x for that country (or that zone).    Just an example - lets have something other than just airfeilds to attack - something that has real consequences (i.e something people would WANT to attack AND defend).  

People just don't get too worked up over the current strat targets.  I also feel GV's should be available at strat targets - they would have been defended.  With corresponding Vehicle base spawn points these could also provide for some diversification by become large GV battles (with fewer Airplanes since airfield not right there)


(could also have GV factories as well - who wouldn't want to bomb an ostwind factory? )

[Blank]

This was last night just after they captured a38 wasn't it?

I was that green dot to the SW of the base in a hurri IIc, one of the probs with the new radar circle is you cant see that your about to die

But out of all those planes I got to fight with a 262 , and lost eventually - i missed a sitter of a shot as he flew across my sights at d200  (must remember I need more lead as he's going faster)

But yeah generally these gangbang mission suck and it was all furballs last night mainly

oh well

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Turbot
Bring aircraft factories to aces high.  Blow up factory X then no plane x for that country (or that zone).    

....

(could also have GV factories as well - who wouldn't want to bomb an ostwind factory? )

That's the best suggestion I've heard since Air Warrior closed down.  Frankly, I'm surprised Aces High hasn't incorporated this concept already.  One of the key strategic aspects of Air Warrior was taking down the Spitfire factory and thereby forcing all of the Spitfire dweebs into P-38s, FWs, Mustangs, and 109s.  You haven't seen panic until you've seen alarms raised about a group of B-17s inbound to the Spitfire factory.

If they include this strategic idea, I'll be the first to write the 'Supermarine Shutdown' mission.  Wouldn't mind seeing the N1K2 factory get pummelled either

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu

There is zero reward for defending a base in AH.  Right now, your only reward is knowing that the guy you just killed is loading up to come back again and he's going to be able to grab alt while you are trying to stop the other attackers.  Its an excercise in futility at best.

Ah DJ, that's because you're looking at the sim from an intellectual point of view.  Many guys play the sim from an emotional point of view: Hey, they're trying to capture our base! Defend it against all odds!  Some guys provide a sim-country loyalty which is startling.  Personally, I suspect that group gains the most pleasure from Aces High.

There's no doubt about it - if someone persists in playing Aces High from an intellectual point of view, eventually, they'll become bored.

From my POV, the most fun can be gained by flying with a squad.  In that manner, the very worst thing that can happen is that you can laugh and cut up with the group, even if you are doing dumb things (like defending an airfield against horrible odds.)  The best can be very entertaining.

curly

[Apar]

Hehe Apar sure ur right not every defense lasts in a furball but why bother about people play the way they like i.e. not defending a base?

Everybody can fly how he wants Duedel. I just can't see the fun in mass raiding fields. And as I said, that''s just silly me.

I didn't like Lazs his constant advertising of furballs. But I have to admit, that most fun flights are the ones in which I fly into furballs or high concentration of enemies and come out of it alive.
It gives me a feeling of achievement which mass raiding a lonely field surely doesn't.

[AKIron]

Defending a heavily attacked field is occasionally very fun. When the field is being vulched it can be a real challenge just to get yer wheels off the ground. If I get a kill or two I'm quite satisfied even if I died 3-4 times trying to get up.

Anything can get boring if it becomes repititous, gotta venture away from the safe things occasionally.  

[AKDejaVu]

Originally posted by AKcurly
Ah DJ, that's because you're looking at the sim from an intellectual point of view.  Many guys play the sim from an emotional point of view: Hey, they're trying to capture our base! Defend it against all odds!  Some guys provide a sim-country loyalty which is startling.  Personally, I suspect that group gains the most pleasure from Aces High.

No Curly, I was there when there were 5 defenders on the map.  I am simply trying to figure out why this is the norm.  I do believe Toad said it best in regards to what I feel most do in that situation: "When I SEE a big nme raid coming I usually fight the first wave but after the first self sacrifice it's time to move on. As has been pointed out, it's awfully hard to have an effect on 40 aircraft that mean to take your base."

I was with a group of about 5 people that were defending A38 most of the day against raids of about 10 people.  They almost captured the base several times and momentum would definately shift back and forth.  Eventually, this moved in on 38.  Then it moved in on 39.  

There's no doubt about it - if someone persists in playing Aces High from an intellectual point of view, eventually, they'll become bored.

Once again Curly... you are simply off base.  I did not even remotely mention boredome.  I know how, where and when to have my fun in the MA.  Its simply about a strategy model actually promoting this tactic.

From my POV, the most fun can be gained by flying with a squad.  In that manner, the very worst thing that can happen is that you can laugh and cut up with the group, even if you are doing dumb things (like defending an airfield against horrible odds.)  The best can be very entertaining.

I'm sure its always enteraining for you guys Curly.  Each and every time it happens.  Its just odd that I don't recall seeing any AKs there chuckling at the time.  They were on, but they were attacking another base.  Because that was definately a more logical thing to be doing at the time.

AKDejaVu

[myelo]

I think base defense is fun:

1. You don’t waste time climbing and looking for the enemy—they come to you.

2. You can do well in a slow, hi-perk plane, like a Hurricane IIc, because you don’t need to catch anybody (see #1). Besides, if the 190s run away, you’ve won.

3. You don’t have to worry about gas and ammo -- you usually get killed before you run out.

4. But if you get killed, you’re right back up. On the other hand, when you kill a bad guy, it takes him a while to get back to the base. (I said fun, not realistic)

5. And if there seems like there are too many bad guys, remember you don’t have to kill them all -- just the goons. Kill 3-4 goons and you can prevent or delay a capture for quite a while.

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by AKDejaVu

No Curly, I was there when there were 5 defenders on the map. I am simply trying to figure out why this is the norm.
AKDejaVu

Heh, perhaps I didn't make it clear.  Like I said, I think guys do this for emotional reasons.  Furthermore, I believe any attempt to change the game (either by creating a new arena - Mission Theater or by changing the strat model in the MA) will be a failure.  

I think the majority of guys in Aces High enjoy the sim at an emotional level rather than an intellectual level.

I don't believe the majority of participants are concerned about the "good fight" or the proper way to attack an opponent.  I think they simply want to kill bad guys, defend their real estate and capture real estate if that's an option.

Guys who take an intellectual approach look at the guys who gleefully kamikaze CVs and shake their head.   The intellectual group shakes its collective head and say "man, how unrealistic."  The CV killer isn't concerned with realism. He's concerned with the game in Aces High and wants his country to win the war.

From my POV it's pretty simple.  There are a host of games that go on simultaneously in the MA.  You have:

1) people who try try to take the smart approach to every situation;
2) you have the group who simply likes to furball;
3) you have a large group who wants their country to win the war!  

If you get too wrapped up in one method, the other guys look crazy.

Let me emphasize, I'm not claiming I know the answer.  I'm certainly not asserting the intellectual approach is inferior or superior.  I'm not claiming I know anything.  I'm just offering my opinion about the majority of participants in Aces High.

curly

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by AKcurly
1) people who try try to take the smart approach to every situation;
2) you have the group who simply likes to furball;
3) you have a large group who wants their country to win the war!

And here I thought furballing was the smart approach to every situation.  

-- Todd/Leviathn