Browning M2 .50 cal and Rate of Fire

[fdiron]

I saw a P51 pilot on "Wings" say that the guns on his aircraft fired at 950 rounds per minute.

[Puck]

Originally posted by Turbot
Don't forget the buff gunners 50's in this too  If you want to crank some of em up, ya gotta do em all


How about this:  After seeing this "field adjustable ROF stuff -make rate of fire adjustable in the game like convergence.

My dad (B24 nose gunner) told me they took out the buffer discs and replaced them with quarters (not nickels as said in the first quote) to increase ROF.  Virtually all the gunning he did was deflection shooting, and he wanted as much lead in the air as possible.  

Of course buffs carried a fair amount of ammo for those guns, too.  You didn't want to spray and pray, though.  

The Navigator (who "couldn't find his prettythang with both hands") had to fire his guns once during training, so dad told him short, controlled bursts.  Tard hald the trigger down.  They're flying over populated areas outside LA after the training run with rounds cooking off in the chamber.  Nav says "You'd better take care of that" and walks away.

Must have been a West Point grad

[wulfie]

If the ROF was adjusted in real life based on the pilot's wishes, I'd say model it. If it was done in real life most of the time I want it available in AH (being able to remove the outer wing cannon on Fw 190As is a good example of this). By 'most of the time' - certain things that had no effect on A2A or A2G combat...I don't really care about. AH is after all part air *combat* simulation.

There has to be some WW2 armorers from US fighter squadrons still around. I don't doubt the HTC guys would check with such sources before it was put into AH. Gun reliability should be added as well - when you have a blowback driven gun like the .50 Browning increasing the ROF will increase the chance of a stoppage.

I'd also like to see the ability to configure ammunition loadouts - pick 1 of say 5 historically used loadouts.

It's a cool thing, but from play AH for a couple of years on and off and WB for a long time I can gurantee there's a big 'to-do' list with higher priority items on it that HTC is whacking away at. If it was done in real life I think we'll see it *eventually*.

Mike/wulfie

[Wotan]

makes no sense to increase rof in ah.


They kill thing effectively out to 1.2k


all you will do is waste more ammo spray and praying.

Every 50 cal armed plane I see holds his trigger down like hes trying to put out a fire. look at the typical hit % of the average 50 cal pilot.

Its not like 50 cal guys are in knife fights where a millisecond snap shot will win it for him.

They are usually at d800 holding the trigger

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Wotan


Its not like 50 cal guys are in knife fights where a millisecond snap shot will win it for him.

They are usually at d800 holding the trigger

Okay, just for grins, since VMF-323 pilots (these 3 in particular below) fly .50 cal planes primarily, we'll compare them to Wotan, who flies LW iron (with cannon) primarily:

Ripsnort 8.36%
Swoop  16.67%
Cavalear 8.64%

Wotan 7.39%


So much for that "Spray and pray" theory.

[Puck]

Puck:11.14%

FM2 and F6F

I'm a miserable pilot, too.  Rip, Swoop, Cav, and Wotan are all significantly better.

[CptTrips]

They kill thing effectively out to 1.2k

If you're talking about .50 cal fighters, I'd like you to produce film of some 1.2k kills in the MA.

Got film?

Wab

[Puck]

I had an LA7 out to about 800 running away and was able to put enough pings on to get him to turn.  I doubt there was any damage, but once he started turning my FM2 was able to cut off a wing.

It would have been interesting to know how far back I looked to him when he got pinged.  Could very well have been 1.2 from his seat.

I consider it unlikely those long range pings did anything but add ventilation holes, and the driver must not have known he was flying a UFO.

[Innominate]

Our M2 .50 MG's fire at 800rpm.   It's identical among the p51, f6f, fm2, and p47.  (This from actual in-game testing 5 minutes ago)

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Puck
I had an LA7 out to about 800 running away and was able to put enough pings on to get him to turn.  I doubt there was any damage, but once he started turning my FM2 was able to cut off a wing.

It would have been interesting to know how far back I looked to him when he got pinged.  Could very well have been 1.2 from his seat.

I consider it unlikely those long range pings did anything but add ventilation holes, and the driver must not have known he was flying a UFO.

Nice hit percentage up above puck!

Re: Range.  I've been out D1.0 and gotten pinged by .50's but no damage done, HT posted in a thread some months ago about the lethality drop off at long distance...so, whiles its very possible to ping someone out at D1.0 (and D1.20 if your lucky), the damage is nil.

[CptTrips]

I had an LA7 out to about 800 running away and was able to put enough pings on to get him to turn. I doubt there was any damage, but once he started turning my FM2 was able to cut off a wing.

How far were you when you sawed off the wing?

If you were plinking him at 800 and he started to turn, then I'd guess he might be at 600 by the time you sawed his wing.

Thats a far cry from being able to effectively KILL  out to 1.2k.

Regards,
Wab

[Puck]

300.  Convergence range on my guns.  One of those "millisecond" snapsots us 50cal drivers don't ever take  

He reversed to fight an FM2 (and I think someone had a P51 behind me also chasing).  Turn fighting an FM2 isn't always a good idea.

FM2 may not be able to outrun a Panzer, but it turns nicely.

[wulfie]

Gunnery % at present isn't a true stand alone indicator of shooting accuracy.

Ripsnort: 5 of 22 kills vs. GV (where your % of hits is going to be very very high as compared to shooting at another fighter).

Swoop: 18 of 109 kills vs. GV.

Cavalear: 37 of 113 kills vs. GV.

Now mind you I think all of you are good 'sticks'. I've seen Cavalear really frustrate 2 or 3 enemies while alone in the F6F. And no doubt some of those GV kills were scored with bombs and/or rockets, etc. (even with other GV).

But with .50s against a GV you are firing more rounds and scoring more hits.

In short - gunnery % won't show if you guys are firing shorter and more well aimed bursts than Wotan for example.

I'm also fairly certain that KE dropoff is well modeled. If you are hitting an aircraft with a few .50 BMG rounds at 1100 yards in AH you aren't doing as much damage as if you were hitting him at 150 yards.

When flying aircraft with wing mounted .50 BMG, I like to set the conv. between 175 and 225 in pairs. Then you really buzzsaw guys as they float across your gunsight in snapshot/rolling scissors/etc. situations.

Mike/wulfie

[Ripsnort]

SO wulfie, then we agree, Wotans "Blanket" statement is incorrect.  Better pilots will take their time and get within range, whether they fly a FW190 or a P51.  The rookies will spray and pray regardless of what aircraft they're in.

I know for a fact NOT to pull the trigger on a FW190 outside of D500, but I *will* pull the trigger while flying a P51D at D800 since I know the .50 cal has a straighter projectory than the 20mm cannon.

[Wotan]

typical hit % of the average 50 cal pilot.

nice list of average pilots their rip

Everyone knows I suck so using me as a test case is pointless.

Ask anyone in ah who the spray and prayers are. 50 cal armed planes. Its comical at most times. If you want then to have an rof of 1000rpm minute go for it they will just run out faster

They will fire anywhere from d800 to d1.2k

Effectively doesnt mean proficiently.

Effectively means scoring hits and ripping of major parts.

Folks have posted films of long range 50 cal snipers. This tour I havent gotten killed by many 50 cal planes but I film my sorties so when it happens I ll post it.

i been flying a ki-61 whos cannon rof are a bit high for me I waste about 20 rounds more then I need per kill.

also it seems ya missed the smiley there rip, even though you quoted it.