Author Topic: The war on Iraq is already under way  (Read 691 times)

Offline 10Bears

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« on: August 17, 2002, 05:00:49 PM »
The war on Iraq is already under way
 
Jonathan Manthorpe  
Vancouver Sun

 There is growing evidence to suggest the physical war against Saddam Hussein has been under way for nearly six months.

No shots have been fired or bombs dropped in anger beyond the attacks on Iraqi anti-aircraft batteries that U.S. and British air forces have been conducting regularly for a decade.

Yet almost out of sight, U.S. and allied forces have been tightening the noose around Saddam, even deploying troops inside Iraq, according to some reports.

This has been possible because of the "no fly zones" over the northern and southern thirds of the country that the U.S. and Britain have enforced since the end of the first Gulf War in 1991.

The effect of this armed veto has been to deny Saddam control on the ground over much of Iraq and to reinforce the until recently heretic Pentagon military doctrine that vastly superior air power can win ground wars almost unaided.

Acceptance of the new doctrine is based on the evidence of the power of "precision" bombing in the first Gulf War, Kosovo and Afghanistan. The follow-on conclusion is that a large and heavily armoured invasion force, as was deployed in 1991, will not be necessary to finish the job of removing Saddam.

Even so, sorting through reports from various places and sources around the region suggests that around 100,000 U.S. and British troops are on the ground around Iraq.

There are also reports that NATO ally Turkey has some 5,000 troops inside northern Iraq, which has become almost an independent state of its native Kurds under the protective umbrella of Washington and London's air forces.

Evidence of even more intrusive preparations is in reports surfacing in the Middle East, apparently emanating from Israeli intelligence sources, that U.S. army engineers are building at least six fighter and helicopter airfields in Kurdish northern Iraq to provide air cover for ground forces.

If the military preparations appear to be close to complete, the political groundwork is still only roughly plowed.

President George W. Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, stepped forcefully up to this task Thursday when she set out for the British Broadcasting Corporation the "very strong moral case" for removing Saddam Hussein and his projects to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

The Bush administration appears unconcerned that it is unlikely to get a mandate from the United Nations Security Council for an overtly legal invasion of Iraq, as was forthcoming after Saddam Hussein's 1990 take-over of neighbouring Kuwait.

Washington is equally nonchalant about the lack of public support among its European allies and friends in the Middle East. There is evidence, though, that some Washington friends are criticizing U.S. plans in public to assuage popular sentiments while quietly aiding American preparations behind the scenes.

But Rice's BBC interview suggests the Bush administration would like to keep the British overtly on board. Prime Minister Tony Blair has been the target of increasing criticism in recent days both from public opinion and from influential figures within his own Labour Party for his apparent readiness to follow Bush to war.

"History is littered with cases of inaction that led to very grave consequences for the world," said Rice. She went on to refer to the appeasement of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s, a piece of history that still resonates strongly with British people.

"We certainly do not have the luxury of doing nothing," she said.

The new war against Saddam Hussein probably began early this year when Bush authorized the Central Intelligence Agency to launch a covert operation to remove the Iraqi leader. More formal opening moves began in March when troop deployments began that have doubled the number of U.S. and British forces in the region from 50,000 to 100,000.

British and U.S. troops in the Gulf States -- Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates -- now number about 62,000, up from 45,000 six months ago.

The Turkish foreign ministry said in June there had been a large increase in the number of U.S. troops deployed on that country's southeastern border with Iraq. There are now about 25,000 Americans, up from 7,000, in eastern Turkey and the British sent 1,700 Royal Marines almost straight from Afghanistan to Kuwait on Iraq's southern border.

Under cover of "joint exercises," there are nearly 7,000 American troops in Jordan, according to that country's news agency Petra.

British and American special forces are already operating inside Iraq, updating information about such potential targets as Saddam Hussein's remaining anti-aircraft defences and his medium-range Scud missiles that could be used to fire biological or chemical weapons at Israel or other neighbouring states.

Israel has begun a program to vaccinate all its people against smallpox to minimize the impact of such an attack.

A week ago, U.S. and British bombers destroyed the Iraqi air force's command and control centre, where Chinese engineers installed a new fibre optic communications system last year.

The overall picture suggests a war of the python rather than the cobra; the slow and steady squeezing of the life out of Saddam Hussein's regime rather than a quick strike.

It is a war that might well remain almost silent and invisible until it is all but over.
=======================================

Oh well, guess we're goin' in.. Your right Toad, no need to debate.  Lock n' load baby!!

This is what really happened to the surplus

Offline Toad

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2002, 05:33:32 PM »
No, this is what really happened to the surplus. Sooner or later you'll put aside your unreasoned bias and realize that.

BTW, the spending is a long way from over. Your grandchildren will still be fighting and paying for this shadow war.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2002, 05:35:03 PM »
As far as Iraq:

1. This article is lots of speculation. Anything out there to support any of what he said? Or shall we just assume it's all true?

2. My views on Iraq are clearly stated in other threads. You've probably read them.. Just War Theory and all? If not, I'll post a link for you.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2002, 06:20:03 PM »
according to some reports. ]

Now thats a right handy phrase.  

According to some reports, I have stopped believing anything that comes out of Canada.

Offline Kieran

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2002, 08:36:39 PM »
10bears, I just can't understand how the left can complain about Bush Sr. not taking out Saddam, yet get upset Jr. is about to. I can't understand how the left forgets so quickly how Saddam has thumbed his nose at weapons inspectors for the last 10 years. I can't understand how the left doesn't see allowing Iraq to start a conflict with Israel, or feed weapons to our enemies, is a threat to us or our interests.

Offline 10Bears

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2002, 09:09:19 PM »
Hey I’m on the bus now.. Wasn’t on the bus but am now. They don’t build 13 thousand foot airstrips to play tiddley winks.... We’re goin’ in.

Was a bit concerned about my draft age daughter, but she don’t seem to enthused about joining up anyway. My good friend Bill’s son Tory is in the Reserves. Hawaii boys always get called up first for some reason so he’s nervous some what. I’ve known Tory since he’s three years old.

I’m guessing the pre self defense attack will start sometime around Sept 11th. I’m resigned to it. No more debate on “why”.. only thing we can do now is speculate on “how”

It would appear the article above was supposed to be secret.... got leaked out. It explains quite well on where all them billions went.

Peace... er...um.. or should I say .. War. :)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2002, 09:11:35 PM by 10Bears »

Offline Sandman

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2002, 09:32:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
10bears, I just can't understand how the left can complain about Bush Sr. not taking out Saddam, yet get upset Jr. is about to. I can't understand how the left forgets so quickly how Saddam has thumbed his nose at weapons inspectors for the last 10 years. I can't understand how the left doesn't see allowing Iraq to start a conflict with Israel, or feed weapons to our enemies, is a threat to us or our interests.


Hmmm... I think Bush Sr. did the right thing by sticking to the mandate.

Has Iraq started a conflict with Israel? Did I miss it?
sand

Offline Thrawn

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2002, 09:52:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by easymo
according to some reports. ]

Now thats a right handy phrase.  

According to some reports, I have stopped believing anything that comes out of Canada.


What do you know about Canadian news sources that led you to this?

Offline Kieran

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2002, 10:04:26 PM »
No, Iraq hasn't openly started a war on Israel at this time. How long do you think it would take for that to happen if the U.S. ever really did what a few suggest here and pull out of the region? Remember, this is the same Iraq that launched SCUD missiles into Israel in '91. Is it really unreasonable to believe they have helped al Queda and suicide bombers?

Offline Sandman

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2002, 10:05:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Is it really unreasonable to believe they have helped al Queda and suicide bombers?


Yes, it is.
sand

Offline Toad

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2002, 11:24:33 PM »
They have to make a case before they pull the trigger.

I'd think they'd have to go before Congress; after all this is apparently going to be an action not sanctioned by the UN.

For now, I'm willing to wait and see. As I've said in other places, life has taught me patience after all these years. I try not to worry about what "might" happen. There's an infinite number of things that "might happen". I try to engage the ones that DO happen or are at least very likely to happen.

Worry never robs tomorrow of its sorrow, it only saps today of its joy.  ~Leo Buscaglia

Worrying is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do, but it gets you nowhere.  ~Glenn Turner

If you see ten troubles coming down the road, you can be sure that nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.  ~Calvin Coolidge

As far as Iraq involved in terrorism with the likes of Al Quaeda... couldn't be, right? Saddam is second only to Mother Teresa in godliness. :rolleyes:

I won't miss him if he's gone... not one second. I'll be pretty d*mn disappointed if we have to become him to get rid of him though.

For now... I'll wait and see.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline 10Bears

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2002, 11:45:26 PM »
Hey Toad here's another essay by Zepp Jamieson, sure he's a lefty but a good writer. Like I said above,, I'm on your bus now.. but here's some more food for thought. Oh I can answer Pat's question... You can bet your bippy they will call up the Reserves.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conspiracy theorists have this oddity.  When one of their theories turns out to be true, and is so demonstrated, they promptly lose interest.  The people who ran around in the sixties claiming that the FBI and CIA were spying on them for their political views and infiltrating their meetings promptly lost interest and moved on to something else the minute the government admitted that they had, in fact, been doing that very thing.

The folks who had been blasting the Warren commission report as a lie and a fraud and insisting that Oswald did not act alone became noticeably more dispirited as the notion that there was more than one shooter in Dallas gained widespread acceptance.  They didn’t even wait for it to be verified; if the hoi polloi accepted it, then it was no longer a special idea.

Last month, I was chatting with a UFOlogist and . . . I don’t know.  I think I got a little annoyed. He referred to aliens from the Pleiades, a constellation of stars also known as the Seven Sisters.  The thing is, the Pleiades isn’t a place.  It’s a direction.  Seven stars, each further from each other than the nearest of them is to us, just happen to lie in the same chunk of sky.  Referring to the Pleiades as a place is one of my pet peeves, along with movie spaceships that go “whooosh!” as they fly by in the vacuum in space, or people who think that if you fly faster than light, time will go backward.  

Rather than grind my teeth, I decided to veer the subject away from the Pleiadeans and onto something more sensible. So I mentioned that I expected us to have proof of extraterrestrial life within a few years.  His face lit up.  At last!  A Fellow Believer!

So he asked me how I thought this knowledge might manifest itself. I mentioned the Mars missions, and the vast quantities of water found on that planet, the plans to launch a probe to oceanic Europa, and the planned launch of telescopes powerful enough to detect the spectrographic signature of oxygen/water planets as they traversed their primary.  A wide-eyed reader of Clarke, Heinlein and Asimov as a kid, nothing sparks my sense of wonder the way that stuff does.

His face fell.  Clearly, he was expecting something more . . . Pleiadean.  An actual discovery of extraterrestrial life wouldn’t begin to compete with his rich fantasy world of Greys, anal probes, and omniscient beings from the tenth dimension.  Reality is for nerds.

In American politics, conspiracy theories abound like fleas on a two-humped cliché.  Most, of course, involve erosions of our freedoms.  The Birchers scream that the commies are just lying doggo, waiting to catch us unawares.  Leftists scream about the Birchers.  White supremacists warn of racial war and subsequent wars, and blacks give a sardonic look and say, “old news, boss.”  There’s a whole bunch of people out there who believe that the Queen of England, the Bushes, and various European banking cartels are actually big evil lizards.  Her Majesty’s a pretty nice girl, we keep her ‘round to catch flies, as the song goes.  (That IS how it goes, right?)  In any event, you can be sure these lizards are up to No Good.  Have you ever met an extraterrestrial giant lizard that can shape shift into human form that wasn’t up to no good?  These people are vaguely scary, in the same way fans of Charlie Manson are.  

Let’s suppose that Putsch’s doctor releases a report stating that the President is in excellent health, except that his tail came off when a cat caught him sunning himself one afternoon.  The media would be all over that story, but the conspiracy theorists would promptly lose interest.  They would say, “Yeah, we knew about that.  Old news” and, covering their disappointment that perfidious reality had validated their beliefs, go on to new and ever more inventive theories.

Since 9/11, the left has been accused of paranoia and conspiracy mongering because many of us believe that Ashcroft is a totalitarian nutcase, and the President a febrile lightweight controlled by cold and vicious corporate types who won’t hesitate to kill a lot of Americans in the name of profits, especially in the form of access to oil.  We warned from the beginning that Putsch would get us into a war for profit, and of course, right wingers and the press dismissed us as anti-American crackpots.

Well, according to the crackpot code, I should be losing interest in the whole thing, and launching investigations into whether it was true that H. Ross Ferengii might have really had a human mother.  

With Ashcroft, of course, any doubts about his intents regarding our rights and freedoms vanished when he had the vast PATRIOT ACT ready to go mere weeks after the World Trade Center attacks.  

Eight hundred pages, prepared in just two weeks?  No.  That was planned well before the attacks.  Congress, of course, passed it without even reading it.

Putsch and a for-profit war gained some substance when he inexplicably attacked Afghanistan in the wake of the attacks.  Of course, now he has a puppet government that is going to let him build a pipeline (assuming the puppet government can keep control of that ungovernable land) and gave him a place to build a huge air base.  Seems that he was secretly building one in Qatar, too, long before the “Get Saddam” noises suddenly came up and we started hearing idiot noises about Saddam and Al Qaida being in complicity.

Any possibility that this was a crackpot belief died yesterday when a friend of mine came into my office, waving a opinion section from the San Francisco Chronicle.  He was excited about a Molly Ivins column on class warfare

http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/ivins/story/3963907p-4989405c.html

(truly one of her best) but even more excited by a Pat Buchanan column on the Iraq attaq.  “Pat Buchanan is right on the beam!” he declared.

I refrained from saying, “Guy, you’re Jewish.”  Chances were good he knew that already.  Nor did I have any reason to suppose that he had converted from being a Jewish liberal to that of a neo-fascist anti-Semite overnight.  So I read the Buchanan column.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20020812.shtml

He was condemning the proposed attaq on Iraq, and doing so loudly, clearly, unequivocally.  Further, he was asking the questions that Congress, much of the media, and far too many Democrats have been shirking on.  

I found myself in agreement with every word the man said in that column.  That column only, mind you.  Let’s not get carried away here.

But recently, I seem to have developed other unlikely allies.  Brent Scowcroft warned that the Iraq attaq could unleash “Armageddon” in the Middle East.  Dick Armey and Tom DeLay have questioned the need to attaq Iraq.  Even Henry Kissinger is against it.  I never thought I would be on the same side as Henry Kissinger regarding war policy at any time, but here we are.  

Every ally we have is against the proposed attaq except Britain, and even there, their military leaders have publically warned Prime Minister Blair that such a plan is sheer folly.

Putsch claims that he has secret knowledge that he can’t share with Congress and that is why he wants to do this.

Buchanan is absolutely right.  This decision, both constitutionally and morally, rests with Congress, and Congress alone.  If Putsch tries to launch an attack unilaterally, we should impeach him immediately, and invoke the 22nd amendment, declaring him unfit to fulfill the duties of his office.  He is NOT going to cost us hundreds of billions and get tens of thousands of people killed, including Americans, without a good reason why.  

I guess with all this agreement coming from the right, I should remember that I’m a liberal, and jump to some other conspiracy thing I can rail about.  I mean, that’s pretty bad company I’m keeping.  Normally, I go wash my hands after reading a Buchanan article.

But the trouble is, I’m not a conspiracy buff.  I opposed the Iraq attaq, not because I thought it could happen, but because it would.  I’m not about to lose interest just because my opinion is suddenly held on a widespread basis.  

This is too big for partisanship, and I’m very glad to see that among the right wingers, that feeling is growing rapidly.

Let’s save the country from Putsch’s folly – or at least make certain it isn’t folly.  We can fight one another on other things later.  America comes
first.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2002, 12:18:29 AM »
"Putsch and a for-profit war gained some substance when he inexplicably attacked Afghanistan in the wake of the attacks."

OK this guy looses any credibilty, objectivity or common sense at this point.

Offline Toad

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2002, 12:34:30 AM »
I read it. I'm unimpressed. He wanders all over the map and never really does make a point... unless his point is that "conservatives" have finally "seen the light", IE: finally agree with him.

IMO, this IS a Constitutional question, as I pointed out above.

Beyond that, I suspect that while Jamieson is wearing his "Constitutionalist" robes right now, he probably HATES the 2nd Amendment. Just a guess, but I'd bet he opposes it and trys to parse its simple, straightforward language to his benefit/views.

........ and indeed, a quick google search using his name and "second amendment" turns up this:

"It’s where the gun nuts have corralled your freedoms so they can pursue their hobby."

Ah, I see. Selective Constitutionalism. How quaint!



Anyway, he flatters himself. There are many, many folks in both political parties that respect the Constitution. ALL of the Constitution, not just the parts Jamieson likes.

But then I'm always unimpressed by writers that have to mangle someone's name in their work in order to diminish that person. I've always held the opinion that if you have proof of your hypothesis, you don't need to diminish the target by using second grade name-calling; the facts can do that all by themselves.

He just seems like another foam-at-the-mouth type with an inability to reason when he does that.

Now, as to you and I being on the same "bus".. I seriously doubt that. I don't think you have the same view of war that I do. I hate it. Also, I'm near certain you don't share my "national" view.

For instance, you continually refer to me as a "Republican", which always makes me smile. Most of the Republicans in the local party structure probably think of me as "that SOB". I'm probably closer to Libertarian than anything else; maybe "Constituionalist" if the is such an thing. If I had my druthers, I'd be in the "Responsbilitarian & Accountabilitarian" party.

This war may come. If it does, I hope it is done correctly, Constitutionally. With a fargin' recorded VOTE. When you go out to depose the ruler of another sovereign nation... no matter what kind of SOB he is...... the Congress should stand and VOTE and that vote should be RECORDED.

OTOH, perhaps what you're seeing is a disinformation exercise akin to Patton's "Fortitude" operation before Normandy. Maybe we can get Iraq to essentially self-distruct running hither and thither. But I doubt it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vulcan

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The war on Iraq is already under way
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2002, 12:38:14 AM »
Uhh dude, I thought it was fairly well known that Iraqi intelligence officers where in contact with some of the hijackers on a regular basis in Europe?

Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


Yes, it is.