Author Topic: 2 realism issues (Read 311 times)

udet · « **on:** August 23, 2002, 05:49:28 PM »

I haven't seen any posts covering these:

1: In numerous books about air combat,I read that if you fire the guns for more than 5 seconds the barrels will melt. Aces High let's you fire continuosly for as much as you want.
2: Autotrim on level works even when the pilot is wounded and has blacked out. I have used this 'feature' many times when my pilot was wounded,especially when landing/ditching.

easymo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 23, 2002, 06:23:26 PM »

Your in a game where one guy can fly three B17's, a job that required thirty men. If he loses a wing, he can climb out on the other one and jump (presumably) to one of the other planes. And just to add to the realism. He has x-ray vision, and can see through his planes.

With this, just for starters, the best you can come up with, is how long you can hold down the trigger?

Gman · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2002, 06:27:26 PM »

5 seconds?

That doesn't sound correct to me. I only get to fire full-auto stuff once a year now, thanks to gov regs, but when I do, I burn off 5,000 rounds plus in a day between ten shooters or so, and I know for a fact and have video I can upload of 50 cal m2's doing sustained bursts of a lot longer than 5 seconds. Sure they get hot, but to actually melt a barrel down takes significantly longer than that. Also, in an aircraft, particualarly at altitude with windspeeds in the 300+ mph range, guns cool off faster what with the lower ambient temperature and added cooling effect from the wind I would think.

I think jamming/malfunctions is an issue that would be more likely to be realistic than barrels melting down.

Hussein · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2002, 04:23:33 AM »

Gman and the .50's in the year 2002 are equal to the wartime .50's built from melted scrap metal huh?

Leslie · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2002, 05:25:56 AM »

Gman's reasoning sounds very plausible. As the chamber heats up, it would expand enough to cause a jam from the powder blowback...causing a dirty chamber. Then, upon cooling a bit, would cause the jam the next time the .50 was fired? Am I on the right track here Gman?

Les

Rude · « **Reply #5 on:** August 24, 2002, 05:25:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hussein
Gman and the .50's in the year 2002 are equal to the wartime .50's built from melted scrap metal huh?

You whiney little turd......how ya been Mr. Ripley?

lazs2 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 24, 2002, 09:29:48 AM »

I hve never heard of a barrel "melting" and hve no figures on sustained firing jams but... the U.S. figures for jams of WWII .50 cal. was one jame in every 3800 rounds or so. That would mean that every other sortie in a P47 say, you would have one gun jam...maybe. Many U.S. guns were able to recharge or, work the bolt from the cockpit and clear a jam. A torn cartrige case or rim or broken bolt pieces were the usual cause for "jams".
lazs

Gman · « **Reply #7 on:** August 24, 2002, 11:23:21 AM »

Hussein, the tooling, the design, the operation, EVERYTHING about the M2 50 cal is the same right this second as it was in WW2. Sure a few little improvements have been made along the way, but it is essential the identical gun now that it was then.

Sure, maybe a few advances have been made in materials, but for the most part, that is a weight reducing issue, NOT a quality control or heat issue. In fact, most shooters will tell you that they don't build them like they used to when it comes to military surplus stuff, and this includes the 50 cal.

Sorry, but even old videos shot during WW2 will disprove the first posts theory, not that he was certain about it or anything anyhow. I've got guncam footage of L/W and US aircraft firing bursts a hell of a lot longer than 5 seconds, and there are thousands of clips around of Infantry using 50's, 30's, mg34's and mg42's firing sustained bursts far greater than the times we are talking about.

I've read that a lot of the USAF's jamming problems with the 50's, particularly in the early P51's were solved when they started NOT mounting then guns on a cant, and made them sit straight in relation to gravity. This corrected a lot of the feeding issues caused by the belt not moving correctly through the breach due to the cant angle.

Jams would be a realistic feature in AH, but seriously, there are TONS of "realistic" features that could be added, and this one would be the cause of more uber-whines than likely anything we have seen. Can you imagine flying a 109 and having your ONE good gun, the nose cannon, jamming on round number 5? Oh, ya, lots of pleased customers then. Be careful what you wish for.

According to Clearing of Live Ammunition from Guns, NAVSEA SW300-BC-SAF-010, the M2 HB reaches cook-off temperatures after a burst of 250 rounds or more. At an average firing rate of say 600 RPM (500-800 I've read for WW2 wing mounted 50's), that would be a 25 second burst. I'm sure at this point the barrels would be worn out, the rifling and trueness probably gone. I just don't think it's 5 seconds due to personal experience with one of my shop's .50's, which is Korean war vintage, and likely no different than those in WW2.

Maverick · « **Reply #8 on:** August 24, 2002, 01:53:34 PM »

Let me jump in here for a couple.

I have a background in the use of 50's curtesy of the Army.

Husein, The production of barrels for the M-2 and other varients of the 50 cal was severely curtailed after WW2. Why? Because they had so freaking many of them and the demand had mysteriously dropped with te end of hostilities. (Imagine that, who would have thought.) The same situation applied to the production of other expendable items like bombs that were still in use up to the vietnam canflict.

As to the quality of the guns. I had to sign for a significant number of 50 cal MG's during my time in the Army. Some of the guns (about a quarter) were low serial numbers. A few were in the 3 digit range. I recall seeing one about the 700 series. The barrels were also from the same time frame. (Are ya getting a hint here????)

The range performance of these weapons was pretty average. We got reliable ammunition cunsumption (they went ratta tatta when we pulled the trigger) as long as the timing and headspace was correct, ammo clean and the gun had adequate lubrication for the dusty conditions (Southern Arizona). More than one went through an entire box of ammo in very short order.

Now figuring on the rate of fire. A normal frate was from 550 to 650 or 700 rpm, depending on thr timing etc and the rate of fire selected on the gun. (some have "dual rates" selectable by flipping a lever on the rear of the gun) This equates to a rate of fire ranging from 9.2 (rounded up) to 11.7 rounds per second. that means a 5 second burst would consume 46 to 58.5 rounds of ammunition. A 50 cal barrel will NOT burn out in only a 58 to 60 round burst duration. You can believe what you want but those are the facts of real world experience.

BTW a buddy of mine has his own M2 50 and we have fired many rounds through it (several hundred) and the barrel is just fine thank you. We don't use the ammo like we did in the service as it costs about $1.20 to $1.50 a round.

As to the overheating aspect, the weapons of the time in AC flying at alt. were more prone to freezing since it was rather chilly up there. Read the accounts of the buff gunners and the temps of -60 degrees in the windsteam. Please keep in mind that the gun positions of fighters were NOT sealed from airflow and used the passage of air to help clear casings and links from the weapon bays not to mention smoke and carbon from powder usage. Smokeless powder does smoke.

Drunky · « **Reply #9 on:** August 24, 2002, 04:21:48 PM »

My ex-father-in-law was an Army helicopter door gunner during Vietnam. He had made mention in the past of firing so much that the barrel didn't actually melt but started to droop at the end.

He also mentioned he was taught to fire 6-8 round bursts (same I was taught in the USMC) but, as he pointed, you really don't care about rules when people who want you dead are shooting at ya

hence the drooped barrel cause by overheating.

He's got a few really good stories like that....

wulfie · « **Reply #10 on:** August 24, 2002, 04:37:47 PM »

Udet,

I just got 'checked out' (as in 'field checked out') on the .50 BMG for the first time in my life a few months ago.

Everything mentioned by the other guys (who have real life experience with .50 BMGs) posting to this thread about burst length, durability, etc. rings true with what I was taught. I even specifically asked if the reason I was being told to use short (6-8 round) bursts was to avoid barrel overheating (yeah dumb question but zero prior experience with tripod mounted weapons in my case...), and was told that long bursts might damage the rifling but the main reason for the shorter bursts was so the fire from the weapon could be adjusted more often and thus be more effective.

The short bursts recommendation for pilots was probably to preserve rifling, etc.

Mike/wulfie

udet · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2002, 05:25:59 PM »

well,I can't argue with you guys, based on only what I read. I guess the guy (Mustang driver) was exaggerating,or maybe he said 25seconds instead of 5-my memory might be failing me

But what about smaller guns-with higher rate of firing, like the British .303s? I imagine the effects of a long burst on the barrel and rifling would be more pronounced.

OSCAR · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2002, 06:40:50 PM »

Takes alot to 'melt' a barrel, doesnt take much to cause "whip" tho, more accurately discribed as barrel distortion that results from heat. And its also true about the m60 barrels drooping down I've seen that, you just gotta correct the elevation a bit

, more dangerous is that you start getting rounds cooking off on their own without your help because of the heat not good for your buddies advancing in front, same thing happens to m16s (so i was told) BAR cooks em off also I know cause I had a jam once because of a broken casing neck and the follow up round cooked off before I could clear it, got a face/neck full of 'US scrap iron' for it.