Apple Gets Stronger

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IMHO this is something peculiar to Apple Computer and it's customers. Steve Jobs has developed a brand loyalty so strong that in many cases it turns into blind, religious extremism. AH will take a
           lot of crap for not going Mac by a very small but vocal group of users. HOWEVER, if they include a Mac version this group will give them a whole lot MORE grief over the long haul.

Completely and totally false.

Perhaps you remember about 4 months ago when Quake 3 arena was released on the Mac first?  John Carmack's email was filled with thousands of complaints, bashes and even some death threats from PC users.

Similarly, let a PC columnist write a column that says, "The PC is not worth considering, everyone should buy a Mac."  Then check his email box the next day.

Or, imagine if iEN said, "We'll be compatible with Vodoo3 and OpenGL on the Mac, but will never do anything but D3D on the PC."  What do you think the response would be?

The behavior of making sure your platform of choice doesn't get slighted is not peculiar to the Mac.  The Mac just gets slighted a *lot* more often than the PC.

Wade
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BTW when factoring in percentages you also have to factor in what percentage of mac's that have a good 3d accel card in them. In fact ID be intrested in knowing what percentages of players
           dont have 3d card's in both the pc and mac.

HiTech,

I would imagine that our numbers on 3D cards would be lower than the PC world, but not dramatically so.

Remember that with the release of the Voodoo II and Voodoo III reference drivers, a Mac user can now buy *any* 3dFx board and plug it into their Mac.  (Although Mac users should buy boards made by Mac companies to support them and to get tech support)

Additionally, we've got lots of boards that support OpenGL.  And finally, we've got the Mesa 3D lib, which even allows us to run OpenGL games on 3dfx boards, even though it is somewhat of a hack.

Our biggest limitation so far has been not having 3D support on the proper games.  For example, I have not bought a 3D board yet, even though there's lots of games that support it (Quake3D, TombRaider, Myth II, and many others).  Why?  Because there's not an online flight sim that supports it.  My point is, come out with a 3D-only Mac flight sim, and you'll see all Mac flight sim pilots buying 3D cards immediately (or as soon as they're able).

(Disclaimer:  I did just win one at the Con)  

Wade
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[-morc-]

Bang for the buck...  PC's prices are lower for comparable power.  

Morc

[-morc-]

Hey horn,  there's over 5 million Linux users,  should we start to gripe too?  If so,  let me know,  I'll start straight away!

Morc

[eagl]

If there was a linux port I'd be running it on Linux, guaranteed.  I've found that every program I've ever benchmarked, optimized or not, runs 5-10% faster under linux.  I keep win98 installed merely because it's the only platform my games run on.  I can do everything else on Linux, and get it done faster too.

But I don't see it happening for years if ever...  3D support for Linux is only recently available and even then only for a few chipsets.




------------------
eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!

[Captain Krunch]

Horn I checked the new APPLE link you gave and it worked fine.  The first thing I checked out was Apple's 5 year sales record.

1994 9,189
1995 11,062 (win 95 is released)
1996 9,833
1997 7,081
1998 5,941

I pieced together that Apple's 1999 revenues should be up a bit to just over 6 billion dollars.  That's not the major turn around Apple needs to remain a strong player in the industry.  If it wasn't for such strong sales of the iMac revenues would have continued their slide.  The problem is that the hype from the iMac will inevitably die down and unless another popular product fills it's place the trend will begin again.  I don't see Apple lasting that much longer unless Gates decides to keep them around to avoid Anti-Trust.  Heck, with free PC's on the way many of the small players in the Wintel market are about to get whacked too.  I believe this long term reality is one reason AH isn't going MAC.  The short term benefits are negligable and long term it doesn't appear that many Apple customers will be left to play AH.  I say this as a former Apple devotee.  I hated DOS and couldn't imagine using a PC.  Then Win 95 came out and it was all over.  The damned things are so good, so cheap and so universally supported.  I'm typing this to you on a P2 450 with 128 Megs of ram, 14 Gigs of HD space, a 17" monitor, Voodoo 3000 graphics card, etc. etc. All this for about $800.  I'm happy I switched.

p.s.
Just the other day I saw something called an E-PC.  At it's core it's a $400 PC dressed up like an iMac.  The E-PC is probably a hunk of crap, but when people are buying computers based on their appearance are they going to know or even care?

[==au==]

First, thanks to Pyro for letting this thread continue as long as it has.  I realize you could shut it down at any point, but as long as it stays civil and people are learning, it isn't hurting anything.

 

I pieced together that Apple's 1999 revenues should be up a bit to just over 6 billion dollars. That's not the major turn around Apple needs to remain a strong player in the industry. If it wasn't for
              such strong sales of the iMac revenues would have continued their slide.

Umm, Capn, do you realize the nonsensical nature of that argument?  "If it wasn't for the turnaround, the slide would have continued."

I say this as a former Apple devotee. I hated DOS and couldn't imagine using a PC.

Which Macintosh model did you own?

 

The damned things are so
              good, so cheap and so universally supported.

You got two out of three right.  (Image removed from quote.)

 

Just the other day I saw something called an E-PC. At it's core it's a $400 PC dressed up like an iMac. The E-PC is probably a hunk of crap, but when people are buying computers based on their
              appearance are they going to know or even care?

Well, first they have to win the lawsuit Apple filed against them for copying their design.

But you miss the point.  People who buy the iMac don't buy it just because it looks cool.  They buy it because:
A)  They prefer the Mac
or
B)  They're disillusioned with the PC and want to try the Mac and this one seems cool enough to be worth it.

I think very few people would say "I want that one - I don't care what OS it runs, it's so cool I just want it."  Besides, ever talk to a typical computer sales person?  They're absolutely clueless about the Mac and will immediately try to sell you a PC.

 

The problem is that the hype from the iMac will inevitably die down and unless another popular product fills it's place the
              trend will begin again.

That would be true if:

A)  Apple stops innovating
B)  People bought Macs just because they wanted a computer.  People don't.  They buy Macs because it's a computer and because it's a Mac.  There's no question you can get a slightly cheaper machine with more software if you buy a PC.  So given that, how could the Mac possibly survive?  Because some people look at more than price and number of games available.

In short Capn, unless something major occurs, no, the Mac will never dominate the marketplace.  But, it is a strong alternative to the PC and can grow even stronger.  And that's good for you PC users as well, whether you realize it or not.

Wade
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[Captain Krunch]

I didn't say if it wasn't for the turn around the slide would continue.  I said if it wasn't for such strong iMac sales the slide would have continued.  The iMac is to Apple what the Battle of the Bulge was to the German Army.  It was a good effort, it made some temporary gains, it slowed down the enemy for a time but in the long term Germany was overwhelmed by massive forces outside of it's control.  Before Win95, Apple had nearly 12 billion a year in revenue.  In just 3 years it had dropped to less than 6 billion.  With a superstar hit like the iMac Steve Jobs managed to bring profitability back to the company and raise sales to over 6 billion.  IMHO this is only temporary.  

Apple's problems will become evident again when iMac sales begin to drop off severely over the next 2 or 3 years.  
Why?

1. iMac's are marketed as very inexpensive computers.  $1,500 isn't going to look very cheap when it's compared to a free or nearly free PC.

2. iMac's look cool.  One thing you can count on is that about a billion PC manufacturers are going to make their own "cool" looking pc's.  

Win95 put Apple in full retreat and only the iMac could stop that.  The E and Free PC is the weapon that Wintel is developing to finish the job.  The only thing that can save them now is Bill Gates.  He may want to keep Apple around to avoid anti-trust.

As far as which Apple's I've owned, let me see if I can even remember them all.  Apple II+, IIE, IIC, IIGS, and then my dad stepped up to the Mac.  For some reason the model escapes me but I'm thinking SE.  I was young and I started getting pissed off because I couldn't find any games.  My best friend bought a 386 running under DOS.  I talked my dad into getting me a 386/25 and he did.  It turns out that I freaking HATED the DOS operating system.  I couldn't believe what an unbelievable piece of CRAP it was!  Although I still used it I despised the whole setup.  A few years later Win95 came out and I was back in point and click heaven.

[Fokker]

Apple is absolutely on the move right now. Look at the increase of their share value last 12 months, and the success they have with all new Mac models. I have used the Mac since 1984, when the first Mac became available. Most of the time I have had a PC available too. My preference is the Mac for most work and also for play. The only reason I have a PC too is that some games I like are not supported for Mac. However, the trend is clearly now that more and more games are supported for Mac. And that goes especially for the most advanced and graphic intensive games. The Mac is a far better graphical machine than any PC, thus supports graphic intensive games as standard whereas you will have to invest in expensive additional equipment to do the same on a PC.

[Fritz-]

One Second please

[Fritz-]

The Final Curtain Please !!!

It has fascinated me the actual depth of debate that has gone into my first post on this discussion.  I want to thank you all who have contributed as I am sure AH want to as well. The passion put into the words compelled with ones own learned wisdom of the Computing world is encouraging for us all. Let us all scream our personal opinion - Let us all tell the other they practice the wrong religion (religion used as analogy only) ..

Debate is Healthy.. If You Love The PC System You Keep Loving It..  your bizz..!!

For Those Of Us Who Love The Mac Os System Please dont try and patronise us against economics of scale.. Yes Money is a Cruel Ruling Factor of Society..
We`ve Noticed......................

Mac is not trying to dominate the world.. and sheezzz please not try and debate that-I give only my humble opinion.. You Drive the car that turns you on and let us drive the car that turns us on..   I only ask respect is given for the product at hand and its expansion within the Computer market as this is written..
many more will come to learn about the Mac Os product and beyond and will join us and it is hoped within the gaming market a place can be found and shared with us..    Thats it...... Please can we close this now..

This debate is a real rager..  

CAN WE CONSIDER THIS CLOSED..       - Good Luck To AH Whatever Prevails-

Fritz-