The Genesis of the F4U1c Hoard

[AKcurly]

I think I'm beginning to get a handle ont his.  

Aces High serves a wide population.  Some of you, Yeager for one, likes to fly with a group at alt, right?  Yeager in complaining about the shipboard AAA noted the pony's peformance lagged below 10k.  What should this tell Yeager?  Heh, keep your pony
above 10k!  For the average pony pilot, getting caught in a low E state with no way to recover, yep, you're going to die.  So the "fly high" group have no room to complain ...  they're taking their plane in harms way when they get low and slow, right?
I'm not implying Yeager is an average pony pilot, but I believe the point is valid.

Some of you don't really care about which airplane you fly or your altitude.  The primary source of entertainment for you in
Aces High is "dog fighting!" I think Nimitz, SeaWulfe, Drex, Hblair and
others fall in this category.  I know Nim, SW and HB are frequently involved in field capture, but I believe their primary form of
entertainment is "dog fighting."

Ok, now ask yourself the following
question: What is the driving force behind Aces High?  I claim it's field capture!  Mud moving!  To be sure, Aces High provides a wonderful forum for the above pilots, but sometimes they find themselves in the way and it pisses them off.  There's nothing
like having 5 F4U1Cs descend on your head, intent on capturing a field to ruin your day.  I don't care how skillful you are, they will ping at you from 500 yards and you will go down [unless you're drex, I can't hit the sumsqueak!   ]

For me, the primary reason I play Aces High is the excitement involved in capturing a field or sinking a CV.  I could care less about the dog fights that occur.  To be sure, I immensely enjoy some of the dog fights, but 99 times out of 100, they happen because I'm involved in a field capture. I rarely up in a plane and do a fighter sweep.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe the majority of the arena feels the same way.  For one thing, it takes fewer individual skills to be successful in field capture, but more organizational skills.  This permits the
new guy (with few skills) to  participate in the excitement!  There are all sorts of useful things a new guy can do to
facilitate field capture.

Ok, here's the setting: The majority of the arena has bought the field capture theme.  Roughly half the arena is involved in attacking a field; the other half is involved in defending a field.

If you are attempting a field capture, you want to be able to reliably shoot down ack and kill flak panzers, right?  How do you do this?  There are 3 good answers: F4U1c, Typhoon and Spit [could use a p38.]  You can use other planes with bombs, but it can get iffy.    Especially if hangars start popping back up.

So, why do I fly a F4U1c when I'm trying to capture a field?  Because it's the best solution!  I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement.

For me, the F4U1d has far better guns than the 1c for dog fighting purposes.  My personal favorites for pure air to air combat are the G10 or the La5/7.  But, as I've already stated, I don't find myself in that situation very often.

Here is the solution:

1) Change the damage model on the Flak Panzer.  Make it so that one or two
sustained, on target bursts of machine gun fire will kill a flak panzer.

2) Change the damage model on the Panzer.  Make it completely impervious
to 20mm cannon fire.  Nothing but bombs, rockets or other panzers will
kill a panzer.

What does this bring us?  Well for one thing, I would no longer feel like I have to fly a F4U1c if I want a base capture to be successful.  I could take a F4U1d (which I like better than the 1c), a P38, La5/7, or even a G10 with gondolas.

I really believe that if it were easy to kill Flak Panzers with machine guns,
you would see the F4U1c hoard diminish in number.   Think about what drives the motivation of most AH players -- field capture!  Think about what they have to do to be successful.

I started playing this game a year ago.  I don't recall seeing that many F4U1cs.  I remember complaints about HOs, but the number of F4U1cs encountered was reasonable.
Indeed, the most common complaint a year ago
was "Spit Dweeb!"  

Flak Panzers are the cause of the F4U1c hoard.  Make them easy to kill with machine guns and the problem goes away.

AKcurly

[aknimitz]

Well put.  The HUGE force behind flying the 1C is its "all-purpose" nature.  Three things pop in my head, in order of descending signficance:

1.  Ground vehicles.  They are too strong, and resisit attack too well.  The best plane for killing ground vehicles, bar none, is the F4U.  Run out of ordinance and you still have your guns!

2.  Buffs!  Their gunnery is too strong.  F4U is a great plane for killin' buffs (especially when you dont like flyin' LW junk)!

3.  JABO!  No need to expand on this, F4U inflicts the most damage and can up from CV.

These are the only reasons to fly the 1C, and the only reason I do.  Change the damage structure on GVs, change the buff guns, and I will stay outta that bird forever!

Nimitz

[Sandman_SBM]

Agreed... the SBM almost always use the CHOG for JABO... it's the most capable aircraft there is for air-air and air-ground missions. Certainly, there are better attack aircraft and there are better fighters, but the F4u-1C is the best choice if you expect to do both on a single sortie.

Oh... and one last thing... I don't think I'd mind it a bit if the CHOG was perked.

[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 04-23-2001).]

[Ghosth]

Good point, if an F6f can kill an osty as easy as a F4u-1c you'll see more F6f's and  pony's & fewer F4's.

As for panzers, again I agree. At best 20mm should damage track, kill top mounted .50, or if really lucky smoke an engine. For kill or to disable gun you need bombs rocks or another panzer.

The only thing your theory doesn't address IMO is the Niki. However I see them being used a lot more for pure A2A, & defense. As such while they may be annoying at times they arn't the problem the Chawg is.

[hblair]

You guys might try a 190 field capture. Our typical mission has..

> 2-4 FW190A8's with 30mm cannon for strafing ack and the VH (yes strafing the VH), carrying the heavy eggs for any GV's that want to rear their head before the VH goes down.

> 2-4 FW190D9 for escort duty, and to keep the spawning planes in the ground where they belong.

> 2-3 JU88 bombers for killing the bomber hangar(s) and fighter hangar(s)

There are several variations to this scheme, like having a couple arados hit the field a minute or two early to kill the VH. It doesn't even have to be german. P47's and B26's can wreak havoc on a field in not time flat.

True, the F4U-c is very adept at ground attack, but variety is the spice of life, no?  

[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 04-23-2001).]

[Tac]

I got a better solution. Tone down the (or fix imo) the hispano power. GV armour is getting revisited next version, I sure hope as hell that AC armour gets a look into as well, im freking tired of a p38 dying to a few 303cal pings beyond convergence.

[Pongo]

I thought I was gonna be groning befor the end of your post curly.. But I was nodding.
Perking it makes more scence to me but apperently that wont happen.

[AKcurly]

Ghosth:

The N1k can be very dangerous if you fight its fight - it really accelerates & turns well.  I guess the trick is to keep your speed and watch for one attacking a country mate.  They pull so many goofy maneuvers in them, they're fairly easy to pick off while they're attacking others.

Hblair:

You know, if you go offline, set protect objects to 0, pull your plane up next to the hangar and open fire -- the A8 will take a hangar down much faster than a F4U1c.

I agree, the JU88 is a hoss.  One JU88 can take out FHs, VH and all ack.  It's awesome.

I would rather fly a 202 than a d9    Heh, let me say that another way - if I'm flying a d9, the only pilot in serious danger is me.  

I dunno about the LW planes.  I see me, Nimitz and SW in LW planes  -- other guys, won't have much luck getting them to fly LW -- even after 55 years, still a visceral reaction to LW planes.

AKcurly

[Sturm]

55 years 352 days to be exact but whose counting.

------------------
Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
"Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl harbor?"  Famous quote from Animal House, John Belushi.

[Fariz]

I love chog, hope it never be perked, or at most the cheapest perk (5-10).

Fariz

[Effdub]

"...the F4U1c hoard"

Who is hoarding them?
If it's a single guy I woulden't worry, but a horde of folks hoarding C-Hogs.... OMG!

 

Effdub

[lazs]

curly.. we are not that far off on this one... it is a matter of degree.  I think you are right.   the fights should evolve around field capture or some sort of "goal".   And, with it's carrier ability, ordinace capability and the way things are set up... the Hog is the best plane for the "job" in the current arena.

The problem is.... the feilds are way to easy to make useless.   No defenders means no fite.  You may like that but everyone I talk to hates it.   Certainly, no one enjoys a 2-4 sector flight.  I would love to see fighters available longer at fields.  that would increase the variety of planes that you see in the fight.  slow planes would be useful for cap and nimble planes for defense.   Contrast that with the current "no planes" defense.   Why not take a chog for field capture???  with the current setup, you are in no danger of defenders and you can take a lot of ordinance plus.... if they bring out the osties you will have the only plane that can kill one with guns.

The arena needs to change.... Make the fighter hangers impsossible to kill till everything else is ded and see what kind of variety you get.   What we have now is gangbang or be gangbanged.   not fun for me or my ilk who like to dogfite.
lazs

[AKcurly]

Yes Lazs, I think you are right about the fields.  One F4U1c can still shoot down the ack at a small or medium field.  It's a little harder now, but I can still manage it.

But, hardening the hangars isn't the answer, is it?  If the ack is down, it would just be a vulch fest while planes tried to up.

Lazs, I agree about the fields, but don't know the answer.  Maybe make the ack impervious to MG or cannon fire, or at least make the 40mm impervious to gunfire? Maybe make the 40mm vulnerable only to rox/panzer/bombs/field guns.

[lazs]

curly...nope.. just make fighters available till the field is closed.  when the field is closed it is captured and you move on to the next one.   people will continue to defend and attack so long as fighters are available.

if the field is undefended then yeah... straffe down the ack and it is sorta helpless but will be captured soon in any case.  The action will go on to the next field but.... there won't be the stupidity of a lone buff killing just the fighter hangers at every useful field for many sectors.   people will have to earn a field capture.   There would not be much point in strafing down the ack and hoping that fighters came up to vultch... the attackers would take the field.
lazs

[hblair]

Lazs, I like ya man  , but I'm sorry, you have to actually participate in some sort of field captures, (killing hangars, ack, etc.) before people are gonna take what you have to say about these subjects too seriously.

Having said that, Tonight is Assassins squad night. We'll be looking for you to join up with us, and give us some strat advice.   If you don't wanna join up, well, we need to borrow drex for a few hours.