Author Topic: Surviving JABO attacks... let's add some incentive (Read 872 times)

Wlfgng · « **Reply #45 on:** August 27, 2002, 09:33:53 AM »

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AH was the sim that's become a game and is sliding head first into being an arcade.

you really think so? lol. whatever.

If AH is becoming arcadish it's because of players, not the game.

Fatty · « **Reply #46 on:** August 27, 2002, 09:42:32 AM »

And the little napoleans too it would seem.

midnight Target · « **Reply #47 on:** August 27, 2002, 09:49:40 AM »

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We have entirely too many unskilled dorks who can't kill anything without getting killed themselves. If everyone decided to engage in suicide tactics, the game would degenerate into an arcade.

All you unskilled dorks out of the game until Widewing decides you're good enough to play.... OUT!

Revvin · « **Reply #48 on:** August 27, 2002, 10:35:52 AM »

Honestly Dejavu have you even stopped to consider what you have asked for? can't you see having rebuild time tied to player life will just result in a new game the game technique where player's find a place to land and hide?

So increase the ack's at a field, it's not really going to make a hell of a difference neither is decreasing their rebuild time to a gamey 15 mins like hangar's when you can still trundle round in the ostie with it's force field protection. If anything is gamey and needs changing it's the rebuild time of 15 mins for a hangar and the ammount of ord required to kill the structure.

The reference to furballer's was because your post sounded just like one of their predictable anti strat whines and it does!

Let's not dress this up any more than you already have, it's about wanting gamey rebuild times linked to a gamey time equation so you can fly your plane from whatever field you want and not be too distracted by strat. Many examples of suicide missions from WW2 but I've yet to hear of a story where a target rebuilt quicker because the pilots died....

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #49 on:** August 27, 2002, 01:53:18 PM »

There you go again Revvin. Let's keep trying to put it into an "us and them" category.

I have nothing against people doing stupid things and getting themselves killed in the game. Hell... furballers probably do it more than anyone else.

I am against having it be more beneficial to be killed than to waste the time to RTB, rearm and THEN return.

And if you really believe people will park and wait 10 minutes... well... you are just being obtuse. Not much point in going on then.

As for the rest of you... I really like the "dweebs", "suiciders", "suiciders", "napoleons" and whatever other label you decide to put on anyone in this game. I really like that all of you feel so justified in it too. Especially you fatty. Pretty pathetic man.

AKDejaVu

Fatty · « **Reply #50 on:** August 27, 2002, 03:02:05 PM »

Deja, have you looked at any of your supporters(?) posts? I don't really care if HT put in your suggestions (though I think it would be a waste of time that would be better spent elsewhere), but once the newbie slamming gets started I'm going to take the side of the unwashed dweebs every single time. I'd rather have a hundred of them than a single self-rightous "proper way to play" preacher.

ccvi · « **Reply #51 on:** August 27, 2002, 03:22:08 PM »

Droping ord, running home, landing and exiting shouldn't be punished in any way, not even by reduced down time of targets. That's a successfull sorty, but rearming is a gamey way to increase kill streaks, not anything too commonly used by jabos considering the long distances they often had to fly.

Reducing down time on suicide runs may be ok though. To add an option for the historical version add a check box for suicide mode, which costs x perks, you're allowed to die on drop without downtime penalty (pp returned if not died during attack).

Revvin · « **Reply #52 on:** August 27, 2002, 03:38:20 PM »

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And if you really believe people will park and wait 10 minutes... well... you are just being obtuse. Not much point in going on then.

No more you being deliberately ignorant to human nature, if there is a way to exploit the game they will just as much as you believe people exploit your perceived loophole in the gameplay. How do you know these people are deliberately crashing just to re-plane quicker? I'll be the first to admit I've accidentally compressed a few times and felt like a right fool as everyone watches me die a pointless death nobody is perfect we've all done it.

Historically there would be thousands of airmen in the air, some of separate mission's some with the same target flying in the next wave of attack. In AH you rarely have more than 30 players all going to the same target so if you replane you're just being part of that next wave, this has historical reference as does suicide missions but I've yet to see reference of a target rebuilding faster when the attacking pilot dies.

Karnak · « **Reply #53 on:** August 27, 2002, 03:57:26 PM »

The only problem I have with the suicide jabos is that they cannot be dealt with from within the context of the game. They are uninterceptable.

Revin,

We know they are intentionally suiciding because:

They do it enmasse
They do it repreatedly

If they were trying to live, they'd eventually figure out how not to compress and die. But seeing whole groups do it repeatedly kinda points towards the obvious. If it was just one or two guys on occasion nobody would care, but when 15 P-51s or Typhoons come in they cannot be stopped and the base will be closed. There is no response unless you are in a 262, end you'd need a few at least.

AKDejaVu,

The structure downtime should be maxed if they live, even if that is just a five minute flight back to a friendly base to deplane. As long as they get a "You have landed successfully" message the downtime should be maxed.

Or:

So long as they live for 1 minute after they take the structure down the down time is maxed. That would still force people to make attacks with the intent of surviving the attack. That's all that really matters here. What they do after doesn't, so long as there is a reason not to dive in at 550mph in an unrecoverable dive. If they have to make a controlled attack they are interceptable.

SlapShot · « **Reply #54 on:** August 27, 2002, 04:26:00 PM »

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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
And if you really believe people will park and wait 10 minutes... well... you are just being obtuse. Not much point in going on then.

Come on ... this type of gaming the game is no different that those that play "hide the CV". If it is available, someone will do it, so I don't believe that Revvin is being obtuse at all ... rather realistic.

I JABO and de-ack all the time, with all intentions of returning to base. But if I destroy a target (any target), and get killed by the ack or a defender, and all the time I spent getting to target is nullified by my death, then you have basically ruined the game for me.

This idea will never be implemented ... we should not waste anymore time discussing it.

Revvin · « **Reply #55 on:** August 27, 2002, 04:31:30 PM »

I disagree, I see pilots dying at fields but I can't say for sure they were intentionally dying to replane quicker and I don't think anyone here can say that with any ammount of certainty, either that or you guys are playing in a different arean I've not played in.

What Deja proposes would quite often lead to lower rebuild times not through people exploiting some perceived hole in gameplay but by simple attrition. A new wave of planes returning to target is more realistic than wave after wave of planes taking off from a field that has successively been blown to smithereens then magically rebuild in 15 minutes and allowing wave after wave of planes to re-up when in reality there would be no more planes left. If you're going to punish those players who you believe are dying on purpose then you must also punish those who constantly re-up fighter after fighter at a field being attacked and throw themselves suicidally at any target that moves and also penalize those who spawn ground vehicle after ground vehicle when supplies would not be there in the first place after the first wave or two waves of attack.

midnight Target · « **Reply #56 on:** August 27, 2002, 04:47:27 PM »

What's the goal?

Are we trying to keep people from dieing? Or dieing while bombing? Or what? How about this then:

If you get a wing shot off, we send a hit team over to your house to rip off an arm. Sure it'll hurt, but the gamey suicide runs will stop!

Karnak · « **Reply #57 on:** August 27, 2002, 04:57:11 PM »

Revin,

I also see a lot of people die that I cannot tell if it was intentional, but when you see fifteen 51s or Tiffes all do it simultaneously there isn't any doubt. I think you are being way, way over generous towards some people.

I'm not at all concerned with the occasional accident. That's just the way it goes.

But when a mission is formed to take a mass formation of fast Jabo aircraft and all dive into the ground, well, that's just gaming the game. For the defenders it is a good reason to throw up their hands and log off. You can't defend against it and it is garanteed to take the base down. It makes the game pointless.

You can't fail and I can't stop you. What's the point in even running the scenario? We already know the outcome. Forgone conclusions make for a lousy game.

Fatty · « **Reply #58 on:** August 27, 2002, 04:58:51 PM »

If you've got 15 tiffies hitting a base and they all auger, be happy. The base would be much worse off if they'd lived to use those cannons.

Revvin · « **Reply #59 on:** August 27, 2002, 05:04:39 PM »

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If you've got 15 tiffies hitting a base and they all auger, be happy. The base would be much worse off if they'd lived to use those cannons.

Exactly! and I might add I have never seen 15 planes all suicide like you suggest Karnak.

The system that Dejavu proposes penalizes pilots who die trying to capture a field but does not penalize those who constantly launch from a field under attack and throw themselves suicidally at any attacker, infact the system Dejavu proposes actually rewards them for doing so.