Author Topic: Ta152 is porked  (Read 1213 times)

Offline devious

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2002, 03:08:35 AM »
They have a TAS indicator (small red line).

Besides HTC having "better"/"more trustworthy" material on the planes, I don't see a reason for things like these to not get fixed. Remember the 190a5 deck speed, 190 roll rate etc.

I'd really like to know what data the FM's based on - when Ami planes are modeled up to factory test data, why are the Kraut ones not up to RLM test data ?

Offline Wilbus

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2002, 04:33:39 AM »
Like Karnak said, 400mph, no problem at all, although it does take half a life time to reach it (guess Kurt Tank was just imagining it being good at acceleration, he probarly dreamt it). 470, no way what so ever in AH.

I think I am one of the persons on this board who knows most (I said one, not  THE one) about the Ta152. The reason RAF test reports don't mention the GM1 and MW50 is because they never tested it with those two power boosts. They were happy with what they had after testing it and since the war was over there was no need to test it with the GM1 and WM50.

I have the same chart as Heinkel posted, looked at it many many times aswell as many other charts and test reports.

Like I said before, the only thing with GM1 and MW50 that seems modelled for the Ta152 in AH is the extra weight.

The Red Line measures the true airspeed which is of course what we've been looking at, max true airspeed is about 450 as Karnak stated before.

The climb speed of should also be 20 meters per second. AH Ta152 does 17.6 meters per second.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2002, 05:27:26 AM »
I tend to agree with Wilbus on why RAF didn't test it with the two systems.
If they really wanted the GM-1 and MW50 should have been VERY easy to produce.

MW50 practically gives out it's content in the name (methanol/water 50/50), and GM-1 could be picked up at the local dentist :)
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Offline Wilbus

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2002, 05:58:31 AM »
They didn't test it is the truth, it's in their test reports. Wasn't just something I took a guess on. It was like it, they didn't test it because they were happy with their results :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Sachs

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2002, 10:56:24 AM »
I love Reschke and his comments.  but then again he could fight a tempest down low as I cannot in a 152 and I do't find myself to be that shabby in the 190 series :)

Offline DarkglamJG52

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2002, 11:14:51 AM »
From book  "Wings of Lw" of Captain Eric Brown.

High performance at all altitudes was ensured by its 18.7 I mp gal(85 l) of nitrous oxide (GM 1) and 15.4 Imp gal(70 l) of methanol-water (MW 50), which, injected into the Jumo 213 E engine according to the altitude at which the fighter was flying, boosted output mightily. Perhaps this was the clue as to why the Ta 152 H-1 was never really put through its paces in the UK
--we had no GM 1 or MW at Farnborough! ....--> Pag 88

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2002, 01:13:06 PM »
Exactly Darkglam :)

Thanks :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Glasses

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2002, 03:30:39 PM »
I have reached in AH about 455 TAS at 41k   with WEP , although it takes forever to get there it does reach that speed (breaks 450), which it's still  missing about 17  MPH more, I do think this should be fixed, all the books I have list the Ta152 at having a top speed of 472 at 41k,that's for the H-1 model.

If it's true in fact the Ta152 climbs at 23 m/s ,then indeed it would be perk worthy! It would only be challenged in climb rate by it's other LW un-perked counterpart the 109G10 currently in AH, I read this in another thread, don't remember which, so don't get confused as to where I got this figure from :D, 2.3 m/s won't see much but in a minute it would translate into the 152 missing out on some of it's performance in climb.

I can't say anything about acceleration yes it seems slow true, but I have not found anything denying or accepting it was a great accelerating aircraft so in that I won't take a stand.

One other thing I think should be fixed in the Ta152 is the  wing fuel being redistributed to the fwd and aft tanks at least up until 75% when you intend to do long range flights because for general flights say 25 miles to 50miles I would think with about 75% FWD and AFT tanks in the Ta being filled would get you aloft for a long time, again putting the example forth of how the P51D's  AFT Aux tank is filled with fuel would be a perfect example as to how the Ta152 the secondary wing tanks should be filled.

Offline Wilbus

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2002, 03:43:29 PM »
Climb rate was 20 meters per second. In AH it's only 17.6 meters per second.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Glasses

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2002, 05:38:19 PM »
Sorry Will didn't see your post well 20 m/s sec is quite a cl rate.  If it's wrong then it should be fixed.

Offline Wilbus

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2002, 08:26:30 PM »
Not if...

The TA152 is actually not porked... it's FUBAR.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline RRAM

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Re: Ta152 is porked
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2002, 05:48:48 AM »
so...what? ;)

Offline hogenbor

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2002, 06:26:37 AM »
I have a few books by Eric Brown and they are a must read.

What has always surprised me is that the Fw 190A is always modelled as a dog compared to the Spitfire IX. Eric Brown consideres them a perfect match and states that in a 1 on 1 fight the victory would go to the better pilot! Not enough experience in AH, but I find the Fw 190 a flying dumptruck so far.

As a side note: Eric Brown actually flew both aircraft extensively as a test pilot and has combat experience flying Wildcats and Spitfires. He is actually the wolrd record holder in number of aircraft types flown (including the Me163, alas not under own power) and the greatest number of deck landings.

I have read an actual wartime trial between a captured Fw 190A-4 and an early Spitfire IX. Speed and climb rate (!) are almost identical up to 22.000 feet, above this the Fw 190's performance drops significantly. The Spit has of course the better turn due to its low wingloading, but the Fw 190 could outdive, outroll, outaccelerate and outgun the Spitfire.

Offline Seagoon

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2002, 01:14:11 PM »
"In December, 1944, Kurt Tank went up in one of the test flights himself and was flying a Ta. 152 H between Lagenhagen and Cottbus when he was intercepted by two American Mustangs. He had a very easy escape: He simply opened the throttle and left the enemy far behind."
[WW2 Airplanes, Vol. 1, Rand McNally]

Apparently he was flying the AH version of the Ta. 152 or it would have read:

"He simply opened the throttle and... there was no perceptable increase in acceleration. 'Himmel!' Tank cried as he was rapidly overhauled by the superior American fighters. Descending in a parachute later, Tank thought to himself "Ach, der plane ist eine crappenfleugen, und definitely not vorth 20 of der perkies! I vill vork on der copy of der free LA7 uberflieger!"

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Offline Mister Fork

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Ta152 is porked
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2002, 03:33:46 PM »
Quote
"He simply opened the throttle and... there was no perceptable increase in acceleration. 'Himmel!' Tank cried as he was rapidly overhauled by the superior American fighters. Descending in a parachute later, Tank thought to himself "Ach, der plane ist eine crappenfleugen, und definitely not vorth 20 of der perkies! I vill vork on der copy of der free LA7 uberflieger!"


RFOL!

Seriously,  Wilbus and Heinkelv - why don't both of you sent to Dale or Doug what is wrong and how they should fix it?

Here is  my take...

When I was modelling planes for SDOE, one the hardest elements in aircraft design was getting the weight to power ratio right.  There are three elements to an aircraft's power: torque, rpm, and horsepower. 1 Horsepower is the unit of power equal to 745.7 watts or 33,000 foot-pounds per minute. Torque is the amount of pulling power at an RPM of an engine.  The final key is RPM - the rotation per minute of an engine at 100% military.

The major problem I had was figuring out engine torque at what RPM setting.  Torque gave the aircraft it's acceleration, climb rate, and top speed.  If the torque is wrong, it throws everything out of wack: accelerate too fast or too slow, incorrect climb rates and the roll rate.

I often had to lower horsepower and add torque.  Point in case was the A6M5 Zero a friend and I made from an Fw190.  I had my friend (a 3D model expert) work on the body while I worked on the physics.  I adjusted the weight to that of a Zero (4,136lbs empty).  Corrected the fuel tank size and it's weight properties. Then I reduced horsepower to a true-life Zero (1130hp) at 2800 RPM's. Problem was that it's top speed was too fast and it's acceleration too slow coupled with a slow climb rate.  

Since HP = TorquexRPM / 5252

1130hp = Torque X 2800rpm /5252  = ~2100

If I lowered horsepower, it should fly slower.  If I increased torque, it should increase acceleration. I also knew that historically the Zeke was a slow (350 top speed at 20'000ft) but nimble plane.  It accelerated quickly at slower speed to about 300mph where it took time to reach it's max acceleration at altitude.

Setting engine horsepower to 1030 and the torque to 2100lbs-ft  the aircraft never reached top speed at altitude.  After juggling the numbers for a while (2300lb-ft of torque at 1000hp), it accelerated properly, reaching top speed in 4 minutes at altitude, and an initial climb rate  of 3400fpm.  Roll rate was close enough (+-5%) and it was as nimble as you would expect from a Zeke.

The problem in designing aircraft was related to the virtual environment.  It's not real - it's simulated.  As a result, I had to adjust numbers to reflect the environment my model is flying in.

Based on what everyone is talking about here, it seems in AH  the engine torque for the 152 is off by a few hundred pounds.

I hope this helps explains what needs to be fixed.  I am not sure what kind of environment model HTC uses but I'm guessing it's like SDOE's.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2002, 12:46:38 AM by Mister Fork »
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