Author Topic: Japanese Kamikaze Manual  (Read 2397 times)

Offline Shiva

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
      • http://members.cox.net/srmalloy/
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2002, 08:49:11 AM »
Quote
Well, I'm not sure about where you live, but fascism is dead where I live, and has always been. Put aside the political groups that pushed it and socialism in those times in my country. It never came to popularity.


That's an interesting statement to make, Lazerus, given that your account information gives your location as Charleston, S.C.; perhaps you haven't paid attention to what's been going on in the US recently. Where a simple declaration by the government that someone is an 'enemy combatant' strips them of any rights they have as a US citizen...  Where the government is recruiting citizens into a program (TIPS) to inform on suspicious activity by other citizens... The Geschäftsstelle der Heimatsicherheitsdienst -- sorry, 'Office of Homeland Security' --  for whose creation legislation was introduced in Congress back in March of 2001, not as a response to 9/11, as is popularly claimed... The PATRIOT act, which gives the government the right to serve a wiretap order on anyone, regardless of whether that person is named in the wiretap order, and can move that wiretap from phone to phone, computer to computer, without demonstrating that each is even being used by a suspect or target of an order; which gives civilian agencies to bring in military forces for "technical assistance" in numerous cases, in contravention to the Posse Comitatus Act; which amends the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), to allow it to get and serve secret search warrants to anybody, demanding information on anything, on the certification that, in the opinion of an FBI agent, it has something, anything, to do with "terrorism" or espionage.

As part of the 'war on terrorism, Ashcroft & Co. have indited an attorney defending an muslim clergyman, on the grounds that answering questions from the press constituted communicating terrorist information (and virtually guaranteeing that the next hundred defendants, foreign or domestic, accused to terrorism or other anti-government activities will be unable to secure competent defense counsel). They have demanded the "right" to bug all communications between (certain) defendants and their attorneys. They  have broken into offices and searched them, with no notice, under "secret" warrants.


Offline AvidMC

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 174
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2002, 09:46:08 AM »
Quote
There is the Government which still thinks the most honorable way to die is to commit suicide and they have no regret over ww2, and then there is the Government which still thinks the A-bombings were strategicaly necessary, and has no regret over ww2. Both make me sick.



           Even more sickening would be to allow thousands of your own countrymen to die in an attack that could be avoided through the use of a weapon such as the A-bomb. Especially if that enemy dragged you into an unwanted war by attacking you without warning. If the use of that weapon makes my country the bad guy then I can accept that. But I would suggest to you that the only way to win a war is to be the baddest of the bad guys. To kill more of them then they kill of you. And I belive that you do that with every means possible to end it as soon as possible.

   This garbage about the evil USA unleashing the nuclear threat into the world is nothing more then a load of crap. Either side would have used it, the US was just the first ones to get the formula right and thank god for that!! Do you for one minute think that a Japanese or Nazi regime would have pumped millions of dollars into a conquored country so that they could rebuild and govern themselves as they see fit? If you do ask the French, Dutch, Ukrainians, Philippines etc... how the axis powers helped them after taking control.

       So in short take your bulls&*%*t hand ringing somewhere else. The lesson to be learned here is not that the USA is evil for using such a weapon. The lesson is that war is evil and should be avoided at all cost.

My two cents worth,

   Avid

Offline Turbot

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1122
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2002, 11:28:21 AM »
....and this rapidly degenerates into the pseudo intellectual political BS that should be in OT if anywhere

Offline Don

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 898
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2002, 11:36:54 AM »
>>dieing for a national cause is not something the japanese are alone in ever doing...<<

No they are not alone, especially nowadays. However, dieing for a cause is, IMO, a bit different than commiting suicide. The "bill of goods" being the promise of all this great stuff they can expect "on the other side" is what rubs me as wrong.
Gen. George Patton was quoted as saying to some troops... "let the other bastard die for his country"

Offline Don

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 898
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2002, 11:48:10 AM »
>>The kamikaze pilots were seen as possessing great makoto. The usual English translation of makoto as "sincerity," "honesty," or "purity" does not capture the emotional complexity of this Japanese word. In the West, we assume that when one is "honest" or "sincere," he states fact as accurately as he can. We prize mental lucidity, "objectivity," and faithfulness to "reality." Ivan Morris in The Nobility of Failure: Tragic Heroes in the History of Japan writes: "Rejecting this grossly material world in which he finds himself, the man of makoto proceeds not by logical argument, pragmatic compromise, or a common-sense effort to attune himself to the 'movement of the times,' but by the force of his own true feelings.<<


Hmmm all pretty heady stuff, and it is clear that you are well read but...just because it is written in a book somewhere, doesn't make it real, right, or in any way accurate to describe what is in a young man's heart and mind as he prepares to meet his maker in some pursuit.  Perhaps in an attempt to understand the inexplicable, a person will look to lofty and superior reasons to explain something so completely against the human desire to live; that biological imperative to see another sunrise. As a westerner, or easterner or Eskimo, I don't think it is a logical part of any human beings existence to long for death and to cut short one's life to get there.
Bushido? Mukato?  Hehe, all part of one big, juicy rationalization for a leadership who led their nation into a fiery hell, and didnt have the good graces or human decency to admit they screwed the pooch. They "altered" religion to create a different conciousness among their people; one that acculturated them to war. They indoctrinated their society to have them believe that suicide was glorious, and life intolerable if they chose to live and let live; this was a concious act on the part of the Japanese military leadership. A leadership that chose to ignore the rules of the geneva convention yet, wanted at the same time to become players on the world stage and develop spheres of influence throughout the pacific. Why? For resources they didnt have. And what ocurred in Japanese society at that time was not the first time in history that this phenomenon was used. In short, it was all about the Benjamins baby.

Thanks for the advice on reading materials but...I think I'll pass;)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2002, 12:04:26 PM by Don »

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2002, 12:45:15 PM »
Lazerus and Avid:

 It is interesting to see that you think "carpet bombing" and "kamikaze" is incomparable. Why is it different? Is there any reason why they should NOT be compared?

* Both were war-time acts of destruction against people/property defined as "enemies".
* Both participants were prepared to give their lives(for one side, death was a risk, for the other, death was a prerequisite).
* Both rarely questioned the "meaning of it all" in open(" you don't have time to think what's wrong or right in war").
* Both believed they were serving a higher purpose.

 ...

 And yet, at least the kamikaze pilots were soldiers took a 'voluntary form', with their attacks limited to direct and immediate threats - military targets. Carpet bombings on cities and  A-bombs, on the other hand, targeted mostly innocent civilians and killed vastly more people than the kamikaze attacks and their victims all put together.  Their purpose? "To crumble the fighting resolve" - a vague, immaterial concept that people figured the Japanese had.

  So then, who's "ethics" and "cultures" on war are more twisted?

 When people's lives drop like the 'cherryblossom'... as they sacrifice themselves to stop enemies from attacking their homeland ... it is consdiered horrible and incomprehensible, sick, and barbaric.. it's a backward feudalistic mentality which derived from the brutal and militaristic "Japanese culture" of the "Bushido" - death and honor,  the way of the warrior.

 And yet, when other people decide to go drop an A-bomb on a city and sacrifice many thousands of civilians it is a "strategic decision"?

 What if I said to the Americans "ah.. the decision to level Hiroshima and Nagasaki... that's the typical American.. always thinking of new things, trying to achieve something in the 'spirit of frontier'.. reckless and cruel as much as they were to the indians.. a misguided passion for challenge and conquest.. always wanting to make a big show out of things... the "cowboy".... that's American Culture.. no wonder they atomized Hiroshima. They had it in their veins".. would any Americans agree?

  No, of course, not. Why should they agree?

 The Americans will feel I have overly complex and imaginitive notions of "spirit of the frontier". That I've seen too many mumbo-jumbo on TV, and translate matters as if it was something from a wild-actioned Hollywood movie. They will feel my notions on American culture is unjust, and I am bringing up irrelevant issues in an unscientific, prejudiced manner biased towards Americans.

 ...

 That is EXACTLY what is happening when people try to find cultural, mystic, shamanistic, shintoistic, whatever-that-has-to-do-with-Japan-istic reasons behind the kamikaze.
 
"American culture" did not create the A-bomb. War did.

 and just as much,

"Japanese culture" did not create the kamikaze.

 "The culture of the kamikaze" - That's only what the self-righteous military fascists of the Tojo regime wanted their people to believe. The grand picture they had in mind.. the unquestioning, brave, heroic warrior of the gods. The warriors who serve the Emperor, rightful heir of Amaterasu the Sun-god. With each death, blessings and honor to their souls.

 No doubt, some of the poor, unwitting young people who were brave and patriotic wanted to picture their deaths in that way. That they did not die in vain, they meant something to their country.. which is, of course, all lies.

 In truth, it was nothing but an insane, desperate act of futility ANY war would bring to ANY nation, differing just in the form and image.

 ....

 "The culture of the kamikaze", is also what the western decision-makers who wanted to justify their positions as "guys who saved lives and brought peace", despite their own hideous crimes of destruction, wanted their own people to believe - that they were different, they were humanistic, they were civilized, and they were just.

 "We" are more "just" than those "other guys". That's why "we" won... because "we" were more "just" than "them".

 Thus, the elaborate hoax of "THE OTHERS" is set in motion. Rationalization, justification, and the process of cover-up.

 After the war, as we all know, the Soviets became the new "OTHERS" , and the cold war begins.

 .....

 In order to justify one's own horrific acts, people have created an illusion of an even more horrific act, the act of the "others" - the mysterious, irrational, and incomprehensible.

 ....

ps)

  Avid, basically, it's like this:

 "What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong"

 If you think the US was right, then you have to think kamikaze's are also right. If you think the kamikaze's were wrong, you have to think the US was also wrong.  
 ...

 Other than this, it is just a load of hypocrite bullshi*. I mean, hey, what's so complicated here?

 "Tho shall not kill" - woops, I killed, you killed.. we're both evil men. Simple, isn't it?

 I mean, why do people have to make such complex rules and conditions, situations, special scenarios to prove "I can kill people, a looooot of people, and still I'm not evil, I'm good. I kill people because I want to save people"??

 If really wanting to save people, hey, how about not going into war in the first place?
 

 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2002, 01:21:34 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2002, 12:45:58 PM »
"that biological imperative to see another sunrise. As a westerner, or easterner or Eskimo, I don't think it is a logical part of any human beings existence to long for death and to cut short one's life to get there"

How would you explain Christian martyrs?

How do you explain the Jeremy Irons charecter in "the mission"?

Offline Shiva

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
      • http://members.cox.net/srmalloy/
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2002, 01:29:58 PM »
Quote
Bushido? Mukato? Hehe, all part of one big, juicy rationalization for a leadership who led their nation into a fiery hell, and didnt have the good graces or human decency to admit they screwed the pooch.


And what  you miss is that 'good graces' and 'human decency' are Western value and moral judgements, not Japanese ones. You are condemning them for failure to adhere to codes of conduct alien to their culture.

Quote
They "altered" religion to create a different conciousness among their people; one that acculturated them to war. They indoctrinated their society to have them believe that suicide was glorious, and life intolerable if they chose to live and let live; this was a concious act on the part of the Japanese military leadership.


They didn't 'alter' any religion; they took their existing cultural traditions and cultivated the belief that the soldier was the modern-day samurai -- and thereby wrapped the military in all of the traditions and values from the 'golden age' of Japanese history. And for most military personnel, it was a step up; the vast majority of the military came from the merchant, peasant, and worker classes, and telling them that they were modern samurai was a vast social promotion -- in the past, lower-class families would be eager to marry their daughters to samurai family, so their children could be samura, but now you could become samurai yourself just by joining the military. It was a powerful social incentive; one that played heavily on the traditions that the Japanese had been raised on.

Quote
A leadership that chose to ignore the rules of the geneva convention


Japan was not signatory to the Hague Treaty regarding the treatment of POWs. The only violation of the Geneva Protocol that the Japanese committed during WWII was the use of biological and chemical weapons. The Third Geneva Convention, which laid out the standards for the treatment of prisoners of war and civilians during wartime, was held in 1949, four years after the end of WWII.

Consider that the French used some 49,000 German POWs to clear mines throughout Europe and Russia from 1945-1946, forcing the prisoners to walk through the area they'd cleared to prove that the area was safe. Between 8% and 17.5% of the POWs forced into mine-clearing were killed as a result of these actions. From 1935-1936, Italian forces sprayed mustard gas from aircraft against Ethiopian troops.  Violations of the Geneva Protocol and inhumane treatment of prisoners was not confined to Japan.

And the Japanese treatment of prisoners was no better or worse than what the Japanese expected for themselves as prisoners, or than they treated Japanese prisoners. The Japanese tradition was that being captured -- to become toriko, 'prisoner' -- was a disgrace not only to themselves, but to their family. Japanese POW guards were mystified at Allied POW's interest in contacting their families to let them know they were captured but alive -- to want to communicate the shame of their capture to their families was alien to them. Similarly, Allied POW guards found it difficult to accept how easily Japanese POWs would profess their willingness to work for their captors, and would work faithfully; because they considered themselves dead to their family, and had a need to feel that they were useful.

Quote
yet, wanted at the same time to become players on the world stage and develop spheres of influence throughout the pacific. Why? For resources they didnt have.


And which the US had threatened to cut off, in an ultimatum which gave no way for the Japanese to back out of their actions in a manner which would let them save face.

Some American policy-makers had long disliked Japan partly because of racism, partly because of economic rivalry. Like today, some were disturbed by the presence of Japanese products on American shelves. And although the U.S.-Japanese trade was much larger than the U.S.-Chinese trade, many people thought that someday China would provide a huge market for American manufacturers, if Japan didn't get there first. Thus, when Japan began hostilities against China in the 1930s, there was concern.

As early as 1938, Roosevelt quietly explored with the British the possibility of war with Japan. Japanese overtures, including an offer in 1940 to leave China and the Axis Pact, were rebuffed. In July 1940, Roosevelt began his program of economic warfare by embargoing strategic goods. In September, he prohibited exports of iron and scrap steel to Japan. In June 1941, he restricted oil shipments. About a month later, Roosevelt froze Japan's funds in the United States. This was followed by a warning that a continuation of Japan's expansionist policies would compel the U.S. to protect its security. Roosevelt also refused to meet with Japanese Prime Minister Konoye. Soon afterwards, the Japanese government fell and General Tojo became prime minister.  

During negotiations with Japan, Secretary of State Cordell Hull demanded that Japan withdraw from China and Indochina, leave other countries alone (including the sacrosanct colonies which the U.S., Britain, and Holland had bagged though their previous imperialistic campaigns), and scrap the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity sphere. Japan offered concessions, but the American response suggested to the Japanese that the U.S. wanted no agreement. Caught in an economic vise, the Japanese began to speak of war if no settlement were reached by November. The American officials were aware of this, thanks to the breaking of the Japanese codes and the interception of diplomatic messages.

On November 20, Japan made an offer that included restoration of peace between it and China and withdrawal of troops from Indochina in return for commercial normalization. (Meanwhile, Japanese forces were moving toward American, British, and Dutch colonies, just in case the offer was refused.) Hull called the offer "utterly unacceptable." Although the U.S. military wanted additional time to prepare, and Roosevelt initially wanted a six-month delay, Hull issued an ultimatum on November 26 demanding total Japanese withdrawal from China and Indochina. Recognizing that compliance would humiliate the Japanese, Hull knew that the ultimatum would not be accepted. And Hull was right — the Japanese government refused to accept the ultimatum. The next day Hull told Secretary of War Stimson, "It is now in the hands of you and [Naval Secretary] Knox — the Army and Navy."

Offline Romanl

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2002, 01:46:44 AM »
"Japan was not signatory to the Hague Treaty regarding the treatment of POWs. The only violation of the Geneva Protocol that the Japanese committed during WWII was the use of biological and chemical weapons. The Third Geneva Convention, which laid out the standards for the treatment of prisoners of war and civilians during wartime, was held in 1949, four years after the end of WWII."

I find this interesting, but somehow are you saying that the barbaric treatment of allied POWs by the Japanese was somehow justified since it did not break international treaties at the time? In addition, prior to WW2 the Japanese had earned a reputation of treating POWs (The example I am thinking of orginates from the Russo-Japanese war of 1905) very well.  So well in fact that the Japanese had earned praise from around the world. So certainly at one point Japanese Culture did allow a difference in treatment of POWs.    

"Consider that the French used some 49,000 German POWs to clear mines throughout Europe and Russia from 1945-1946, forcing the prisoners to walk through the area they'd cleared to prove that the area was safe. Between 8% and 17.5% of the POWs forced into mine-clearing were killed as a result of these actions. From 1935-1936, Italian forces sprayed mustard gas from aircraft against Ethiopian troops. Violations of the Geneva Protocol and inhumane treatment of prisoners was not confined to Japan."

I do not have the means of verifying these assertations. However, I do find it difficult to excuse an atrocity "Because everybody does it" I feel the bombing raids on Dresden and Hamburg along with the firebombings of Tokyo were astonishing acts of inhumanity. It is fortunate that the Allies won that war and never had to explain these acts in a court of law.  However, the Japanese did lose the war and they did have to answer for a number of human rights abuses.  History is written by the victors.  

"Some American policy-makers had long disliked Japan partly because of racism, partly because of economic rivalry."

What is not mentioed here is that the Japanese felt the same way toward the US. I do not know why it is hard to understand that other countries are racist besides just the US. Surely you do not believe that racism did not exist in Japan at the time or does not exist today in modern Japan? Racism is an affliction that enlightenment will eventually overcome, but please do not place the blame completely on the US.  As far as econmic rivalvry goes there was no problem with Japan UNTIL the China issue boiled over.

"And although the U.S.-Japanese trade was much larger than the U.S.-Chinese trade, many people thought that someday China would provide a huge market for American manufacturers, if Japan didn't get there first. Thus, when Japan began hostilities against China in the 1930s, there was concern."

I guess that is one way to spin it.  That the concern was that the Japanese were cornering the market in China.   Actually, the Japanese were engaged on a BRUTAL war of conquest in China. America had long had a romantic regard toward China and had sent a great many missionaires over in the years prior. Thus, when Japan attacked China and seized areas bordering Manchuria a great deal of American sympathy was raised for China. I doubt strongly if it was just an economic issue considering that Japan was several times the trading partner for the US at the time that China was.


"As early as 1938, Roosevelt quietly explored with the British the possibility of war with Japan. Japanese overtures, including an offer in 1940 to leave China and the Axis Pact, were rebuffed. In July 1940, Roosevelt began his program of economic warfare by embargoing strategic goods. In September, he prohibited exports of iron and scrap steel to Japan. In June 1941, he restricted oil shipments. About a month later, Roosevelt froze Japan's funds in the United States. This was followed by a warning that a continuation of Japan's expansionist policies would compel the U.S. to protect its security. Roosevelt also refused to meet with Japanese Prime Minister Konoye. Soon afterwards, the Japanese government fell and General Tojo became prime minister. "

Wow you are pretty good at this. I guess that I could point out that Roosevelt's actions were NOT performed in a vacum. Each action was made as an increasing ECONOMIC (Note that no real military action was taken against the Japanese prior to 1941 by the US) pressure on Japan to stop its war on China.   The atrocity in Nanking by the Japanese (I believe in 1937) was a major factor in this. It has been estimated that over a 100,000 Chinese civilians were killed by the Japanese military. This shocked the entire world at the time including the German embassy staff in Nanking. Why did you, why do you continually leave out information like that? It puts the American actions IN CONTEXT. Also note that at any point in time up until 1941 the Japanese Govt could have changed course, but THEY CHOSE NOT TO HEED AMERICAN WARNINGS or economic pressure.  Thus, the Japanese set the course for war while refusing to heed gradual American economic pressure.  Pressure that only grew as the American frustration over the Japanese aggression grew. The pressure grew so tight that Japan literally backed itself in a corner.

The only way out for the Japanese was to gain economic independence from America. The way to do this was to seize the oil fields in Indonesia and the mineral resources of Southeast Asia. This meant war with the Dutch and British and possibly the Americans. The important issue here is whether or not America would have gone to war to defend European colonies in Aisa. The Japanese simply assumed the US would.  Thus, Japan launched a war on its largest trading partner in order to continue a dubious campaign of conquest in China. It boggles the mind!

 Another issue worth noting is that the civilian government running Japan at this time had very little real power. The real power belonged to the military. It is not like the US actions casued the civilian government to fall and opened the way for the Japanese to be ruled by the military and THAT led to war. The military already held the real power in Japan which is why Japan could not let go of the China "adventure." The military was well beyond the control of the Japanese civilian government by the 1930's.

"On November 20, Japan made an offer that included restoration of peace between it and China and withdrawal of troops from Indochina in return for commercial normalization. (Meanwhile, Japanese forces were moving toward American, British, and Dutch colonies, just in case the offer was refused.) Hull called the offer "utterly unacceptable." '

By this time Washington was convinced there would be war no matter what. The interception of Japanese diplomatic cables that late summer had already set war in motion.  Washington came to believe war with Japan was inevitable and it developed a "war is coming mindset."  This was unknown to the Japanese who had not made the final decision to go to war and were unaware of the American interception. The cable that the Americans had intercepted was describing just one avenue the Japanese could take, not the ONLY one. In a way, it is tragic that the situation reached an impasse then passed the final point of no return largely by a misunderstanding.

As a final note, keep this in mind : Roosevelt did not want a war with Japan at the time.  He wanted a war with Hitler whom he felt was the greater threat to the West. It is highly doubtful that he purposely baited the Japanese in a game of "chicken" that led to the Pacific war. Hitler was foremost in his mind and his number one priority. Why would Roosevelt provoke the Japanese into a war that would distract from American interests in Europe?

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2002, 02:47:23 AM »
S!

What are the two major differences between the rulers of Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany and the Western Allies?

The Rulers of the two Axis nations believed they and their people were inherently superior to other humans, and that gave them the right to enslave outsiders and to kill them as easily as dogs.

That is the essence of National Socialist philosophy, as well as being fundamental to the Nationalist beliefs engendered by the Militarist rulers of Japan.

The other aspect of these societies which is rigidly distinct from Western Democracies is the idea that the individual is unimportant, and that government has a right to demand the sacrifice of any number of its citizens in whatever cause it deems nessesary.

Through the course of several centuries, the Militarist rulers of Japan co-opted the code of Bushido, which began as a guide to the means whereby an individual might live his life and be true to himself.   They transformed it into a code which bound the individual to the corrupt needs of the state and its rulers.

This kind of Corporatist, anthill type of thinking is anathema to Western philosophy, who from Rousseau onwards, have taught us the value of individual life, and stressed the importance of individuals taking responsibility for their actions.

Democracy has triumphed over Aristocratic Feudalism, Facism and Soviet Corporatism for the simple reason that man is not a robot, he is an individual who thinks and produces best when he is free to make his own decisions.

There will always be pressure from both the extreme right and left to compromise the democratic principle, but that  pressure will always fail in the face of free individuals working together to defeat it.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2002, 02:57:26 AM by Buzzbait »

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2002, 03:36:38 AM »
Quote
"Consider that the French used some 49,000 German POWs to clear mines throughout Europe and Russia from 1945-1946, forcing the prisoners to walk through the area they'd cleared to prove that the area was safe.


There was :
150 000 bombs
several millions tons of munitions to destroy
28 000 Km² of mine field
2400 kilometers of coast and beach with mines
1 000 000 of mines...

a lot of work no ?

Don't forget that every month 0 to 5 bomb are  removed 60 years after ...

yet another citation :
Quote
Entre 1945 et 2000, plus de 660 000 bombes, 13,5 millions de mines et 24 millions d'obus et d'engins divers ont été découverts, neutralisés et détruits.

translation :

between 1945 and 2000 660 000 bombs 13 500 000 mine and 24 000 000 shell have been discovered ,neutralized   and destroyed
« Last Edit: August 28, 2002, 03:50:29 AM by straffo »

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2002, 07:57:53 AM »
From what ive read the early kamikazes were volunteer, but as the end came many were"volunteered" whether they wanted to or not. You cant blame the young "pilot" for doing this. People that age are very easy to convince, with a little pride, sake, and spiritual thinking.  Even today with suicide bombers, if those people didnt think that at the moment of detonation they were going to a special place...other than becoming another dust particle in the atmosphere, they wouldnt be doing that either. The author of that probably ended up living out the remainder of his or her life happily. War sucks. Old men start wars, young men fight wars.

~AoM~

Offline Shiva

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
      • http://members.cox.net/srmalloy/
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2002, 08:15:56 AM »
Quote
I find this interesting, but somehow are you saying that the barbaric treatment of allied POWs by the Japanese was somehow justified since it did not break international treaties at the time?


No, I am saying that decrying the actions of the Japanese because they failed to adhere to the strictures of a treaty which they had not signed and were not bound by is pharisaical. We won WWII; we paid in blood for the power to judge their actions by our ethical and moral standards. Their treatment of prisoners and civilians was brutal and inhumane, but it wasn't in violation of the Hague Treaty.

Offline Don

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 898
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2002, 09:09:47 AM »
>>And what you miss is that 'good graces' and 'human decency' are Western value and moral judgements, not Japanese ones. You are condemning them for failure to adhere to codes of conduct alien to their culture. <<

Hmmm, surely you are not suggesting that the Japanese or Eastern cultures are without good grace and human decency?
And I am comdemning their leadership (during that time) for their failure to adhere to codes of conduct that any humane nation would embrace;  the rape of Nanking comes to mind and/or the Bataan death march.

>>They didn't 'alter' any religion; they took their existing cultural traditions and cultivated the belief that the soldier was the modern-day samurai -- and thereby wrapped the military in all of the traditions and values from the 'golden age' of Japanese history<<


They most certainly did. Bushido was the predominate religion of the Japanese. It was a good and righteous set of beliefs, and it was bastardized by the militarists for their own ends.  This was done as part of their grand design to go to war to take territory and resources. And in the other asian nations they could not co-opt into their greater east asia co-prosperity sphere, they invaded and took what they wanted. Interestingly enough, they made no distinction between the two types; they treated all of the member nations of the co-prosperity sphere like crud.

So, the Japanese like the Germans at the time, were all sold a bill of goods by their respective leadership; a thing we see repeated today in others. However, for me it doesn't change the fundamentals of it; it is wrong. If I decide to give up my life, it is my choice and I do it for reasons that may be so self sacrificial in order that others may benefit from it. I value my life, as do others in the world. I respect and have interest in other people and their cultures. As for differences between western values and eastern values, Ho Chi Minh was a patriot to the vietnamese people; he fought for his countrie's independence. It is not until recently that certain americans have acknowledged this fact, and have come to an understanding that he did for his country what many of our forbears did for America.  But the fundamental value is right, and not based on manipulation and deceit as in the case of the militarists of the time.

Offline Don

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 898
Japanese Kamikaze Manual
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2002, 12:56:31 PM »
>>"If I had let that happen, the 100th Wing would have lost its military capability immediately. Our wing would be useless. If this wing was broken down bit by bit for kamikaze missions, what would be the point of having trained this wing, organized the wing, and taken the pain of transporting the wing? Why waste our efforts?" <<

Shamefully western in his approach to modern warfare I am afraid. To think that he would hold steadfast in his belief in the use of his unit as a fighting force.
By the same token I find it disappointing that for tjhose who lived (Japanese) to render their living opinions are somehow less deserving to tell the tale.  They lived and their tales are truth as they were there and participated,  IMO myths are tales of the dead and cannot be validated or confirmed.