Graphics

[muckmaw]

Originally posted by AKSWulfe


The facts are you got a poll of people who do not play AH. This is not representative of AH. That's the poll you need, and it needs to be of the entire customer base. THAT'S BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.
-SW

So, if AH has 4000 subscribers, and they poll and get 2000 responses, you're saying that would be invalid too?

That is so ridiculous, it's beyond comprehension.

You've got over a million online gamers in the poll I showed you! You're telling me NONE of them play Aces High? You're going to sit there and say AH players are a breed apart from the rest of the online gaming community? You honestly believe an AH player has a different rig than the rest of the online gaming world? What color is the sky in your world? Geeez!

Please. Just stop.

[AKSWulfe]

I've played FPS games, you always need the top of the line rig in those games.

I've played combat flight sims, you don't always need the top of the line rig and some people do not have top of the line rigs if it's not needed.

"So, if AH has 4000 subscribers, and they poll and get 2000 responses, you're saying that would be invalid too?"

Now you are just making assumptions. I would consider getting half of AH's customers responses would be a good start and pretty good basis for what to do next.

I would not say that 62 people is good at all, that is in fact insufficient.

"That is so ridiculous, it's beyond comprehension."

What's ridiculous is how you already answered that for me and made the assumption. But hey, it's nice that you can make up my mind for me.

"You've got over a million online gamers in the poll I showed you! You're telling me NONE of them play Aces High? You're going to sit there and say AH players are a breed apart from the rest of the online gaming community? You honestly believe an AH player has a different rig than the rest of the online gaming world? What color is the sky in your world? Geeez!"

Million online gamers? Hmmm, that wouldn't even come close to half of the people that play FPS games.

Flight sims have always been a niche market, and that's a fact. Some of those people may play Aces High, I dunno, but probably not more than a handful.

I do believe that there's a lot of people out there who play games that don't know the first thing about computers. They just bought it off the shelf. I see it on every gaming message board I go to, "Is this good enough for..."

But a poll for FPS gamers does not fit the bill for someone who plays flight sims, air combat sims, or RPGs.. there are entirely different requirements for each.

Like I said, poll the AH customers- they are the ones who matter.

"Please. Just stop."

I would ask the same of you, but you continue to go on despite obviously not knowing how to develop a game for a small market that requires keeping the majority of your current customers while at the same time trying to pull more in.
-SW

[Zigrat]

well i used the results and extrapolated them using moose's law and heres what I got. (see attached) I am no marketing expert but I would say that to capture 95% of all possible users a decent minimum spec would be 500 MHz cpu with TNT2 for 20 FPS, and a recommended system of 733 MHz with at least a GF1 (or equivalent ie V5500) for 30 fps. (about 80% of the market meets this recommended spec).

This seems pretty reasonable, specially considering that the above mentioned systems were near "top of the line" 3 and 2 years ago respectively. I would say the maximum life of a gaming system is 3 years, with a 2 year life for optimum gameplay.

Where am I in the curve? I am at about the 85% mark (1700 mhz and gf3).  (my system is 9 months old)

You can also get some interesting data form this too:

If you buy a new system today, about 20% of people will own a better system within 1 year.

About 80% within 2 years.

About 95% within 3 years.

Which all fits pretty well with what I would expect (I would expect most people upgrade on about an 18 month cycle (which is pretty close to what I do) .

[AKSWulfe]

By Q1 of 2003, I'd say that the majority of people would have GF2s and 1Ghz as a minimum system.

There would still be slower systems out there, but the minority is not something you hold game development back for.

I have only been attempting to tell you all in this thread who have been repeatedly arguing with me WHY HTC has not done a graphics overhaul yet, and probably won't do one until atleast 1.12 or whatever the upgrade will be #d after the next upgrade.

At that point, the graphics overhaul will be worthwhile. HTC can take advantage of new DX features, and new card features. This in turn benefits the end user by giving him far more features and development time not being held up to continue support for old graphics or slower systems.

HTC doesn't lose a whole lot of customers by cutting out a bunch of people, and the customers get a bunch of nice eye candy.

It's win/win at that point.. at this point it's iffy unless you can prove that the majority of AH players would either upgrade or already have.
-SW

[poopster]

I have IL-2 and WBIII. IL-2 has the best graphics but both have one thing in common.

Neither are "plug and play". My system isn't a screamer. 1.2 T-bird, GF 2 pro and 512 of DDR. Now by using NVmax and Tweakme, nudging it here, fiddling with it there, doing this, playing with that I can run both games pretty well. I built it as a gaming rig..Was cutting edge a year or so ago

I submit the "average" sim pilot isn't going to go "there" He bought his machine at CompUSA and has never seen the inside of it. Probably paid a couple of grand for it too He pushes the button......and it comes on

Graphics are why he showed up, it doesn't run on his system and he's gone. WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT WON'T RUN ??? I JUST BOUGHT IT ????

WB is on the verge of release of a retail boxed CD. How long are the "thousands" of new customers going to stay when their FPS is in the low twenties unless they know how to tweak their toybox ?? It's pretty, it doesn't run. You mean a GF 3 and 512 of RAM doesn't come stock in the Dell I just bought ???

WHASSSSUP WIT DAT ???

AH while somewhat dated in graphics does one thing VERY well. Gameplay. Gameplay keeps customers. Graphics may bring them through the door, but gameplay keeps them.

Anyone I talk to about trying this game out, my advise is: Don't fly offline. Get in the arena and play. It's the play that hooks the customer.

This game IS "plug and play" and that in itself is a HUGE plus to the average person.

If this company had the brains to put out the current product, I have no doubt they have the brains for a graphic upgrade. Good track record. No ??

Just desaturate the blue sky a little and I'm a happy camper

[BigGun]

Well I came across this which appears was an interview with Hitech at this years Con. Sounds like about a year away in Hitechs view.


Sabre: Fair enough. Let's wrap this up with just a few general questions. The graphics engine Aces High uses right now works pretty well. It provides pretty good frame rates for people with more modest computers. When do you see that there'll be a need for a major upgrade to the graphics engine?

HiTech: That would be in about a year's time frame when we'll need to start on that. The cool stuff you can do with the new video cards out there hasn't really been a big deal…until they came out with pixel shaders. Pixel shaders were introduced in DirectXÔ 8.1, but hardly any hardware out there supported them. So it really wasn't worth implementing in the game. As we approach about a year from now, TNT-2's will pretty much be out of date and we'll be into all GForce2 stuff. I can push some vertex processing up onto the [video] boards and be assured it's not going to kill peoples' machines, and start adding in the neat-looking effects, the pixel shaders and that type of stuff.


Full link to the interview (this quote was from page 5):

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aceshigh_interview_2002/

[muckmaw]

There is no question gameplay is everything when it comes to keeping customers. How many AH players play chess? I mean the board version. No bells, no whistles...just strategy and challenge.

But the question I must ask is, how long will it be before IL2, or another game comes up with more compelling game play, and has the graphics to boot? What will happen to Aces High then?

Hopefully, they will maintain their track record and still be ahead of the curve.

Personally, I bought my Dell and never tweaked it. I've played online games for quite some time, and knew what specs make the system. I have never opened the case, nor do I intend to. (Why bother, the system is only 9 months old).

I should hope, though, that anyone intelligent enough to have $2000 in disposable income would do their homework before buying a system.

There's no question in my mind, Aces High is a great game. There is very few things in this world that can keep me up until 2am when I have to be at work at 7.

And I think there should be OTHER improvements made before a Graphics remodel is done.

Better strat system, more roles for heavy bombers, troops that both attack and defend cities. (You guys like shooting chutes, imagine strafing a column of troops controlled by real players.)

Sooner, or later, though, we're going to need the eye-candy. Of course, I want it now now now, but I'll just have to wait.

[AKSWulfe]

I don't disagree with you on any of that Muck.

Well, except for "what happens when Il2..." the problem with those games is that you need the absolute top of the line to play 'em.

For example, when Forgotten Battles comes out, I think Oleg said a minimum of a GF3 was required for the new features they have implemented. Then on top of that, Il2 is limited MP capabilities. And Il2's gameplay is set in stone. FB appears to be the same style in terms of Multi-Play. AH, WBIII and FA3 are not in competition with Il2, CFSIII or any other limited MP boxed game.

Some people who pay to play games(monthly) can't justify paying to play it plus paying to upgrade. Some can, some can't. There is a fine line you need to dance there to keep the already established customer base, while bringing in more players.

I build my own systems, while I only have a couple hundred to spare I upgrade piece meal style and by cannibilising much of my old system(s).

Anyhow, I'm not the average computer user. I will sit at my desk for hours on end tweaking it and tweaking it and tweaking it to get the most out of it. Many of the average computer user's also don't spend a whole lot on a brand new system.. when they can just as easily buy one of those E-machines (ugh), or any of the other pre-built low cost machines. Some people do their homework, others just buy what they can when they can and whatever the salesperson convinces them to buy.

Anyway, HiTech made it very clear that he's waiting. I was only conveying that message, and was berated for it.
-SW

[vorticon]

if you got 2000 votes out of 4000

but there arnt 4000 players and iot would be invalid if there were all only hth or MA players. and if you only got 64 out of however many players there are it would be invalid. a sample would have to get at least 1/5 of the entire AH community. and it would have to include the hth players. if you got only the MA players for a poll on better graphicsd it would be invalid because theres a relativly large hth community.


imo the graphics on AH are fine. sure theres room for improvement but if they do to much work on it then the people with poorer graphics cards and cpus will have to leave and the low end computer users make up a large portion of the AH community. and your forgetting price. natedog and superfly would have to spend months developing better graphics wich would mean the price that we have to pay for the MA would increase. one of the major draws to AH is its low price and the 2 week free trial. how many people who play AH actually play it at the really high screen resolutions? probably not many. most people are playing at 1024-768 resolution or lower either for reasons of small screens or because there computers CANNOT HANDLE IT. a new graphics engine would mean that playing at 600by480 will take the same power as running at 1024by768. you have to be running a nvida 2+ graphics card with a minimun 900mhz and a 17 inch screen to run it at 1024 by 768 and still get a fps of over 50. i played it on a 650mhz with some outdated graphics card once and i was running it in 640 by 480 and it looked like CRAP and i was pulling a fps of 20 barely.  

How many AH players play chess?

well i know i do

there thats my rant for the day

[muckmaw]

I'm just afraid of tweaking the system. I did that with my old system, and it was one nightmare after another. This piece conflicting with that, driver updates, hours on the phone with tech support that knows even less than me.

I'm the kind of guy who will run a system until I can't play my favorite games anymore, and then either buy a new one, or make desperate upgrades to keep the thing on life support until funds permit a new system.

I really use my system for very limited purposes:

Aces High (The reason I bought the system)
Civ 3 (When I get sick of getting shot down)
E-bay (Supplimental income stream)
Porn (Self-explanitory)

I agree with what your saying, SW. HT does know what he is capable and not capable of doing. His team has yet to disappoint me.

The part of your posts that made me crazy was about the average system specs of the AH user. Still this is been one of the better debates I've had on this board.

I hope you don't take anything personally. It's just like a political debate. People with different views butt heads for an hour, and then shake hands and move on.

A graphics upgrade would be nice, but if it impacts gameplay, or threatens the AH community, than it is simply not worth it.

[AKSWulfe]

Hey, I never said the average system specs of the AH players. I dunno.. that's why I wanted the AH players to be polled.

I didn't take anything personally, we did manage to beat the hell out of this thread and drag it all over the place though.

Anyhow, it's time to move on and go back to ruthlessly killing each other in AH with no remorse.

See ya up in the pasty blue virtual skies just above the glossy coat reflective terrain.
-SW

[muckmaw]

After this little debate, I might actually hesitate before pulling the trigger on an AK........

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH:D

See you up, SW

[AKDejaVu]

Included in the latest update releases to Half-Life software, the survey requests validation of the user's system, thus ensuring highly accurate data collection. Since its launch last Wednesday, the survey has had over 300,000 participants, and is expected to continue compiling data for the next few months.

LOL! Limiting their sample to a specific genre... omitting some very obvious points...

Competitive gamers?  Most of these are already sending their $$$ somewhere.  So, are you trying to get these 300,000 participants to come over to your game... or the 20 million that purchased computers last year?

Damn guys... you're all just saying the same thing over and over and nobody is really listening.

Everyone would like to see better graphics.  Eventually, the low end systems MUST be replaced in order to keep up.  Its really that "simple".

Where this thread goes astray is simply by assuming that HTC is not aware of this and is not planning for it.  What makes people think that HTC must meet their specific time table?  HiTech has stated that a graphics overhaul is on the agenda.  Why isn't that enough?

AKDejaVu

[runny]

Originally posted by gatt
Its really hard to believe that GF2 and 1GHz CPU is not the standard, the average system that is. It means that there are so many TNT-GF1 around ... ? And again, I dont think that graphics is the main issue, nor the d/l size. Take a look at how many players FA and IL-2 have and at the size of their d/l. Development pace, crew size, strategic choice ... these are arguments I can agree with. But not for a long time.

All I can say is this:

I know a lot of people who, if they had to choose between buying a newer graphics card to play AH, or dropping AH altogether, would look at their household balance sheet and, with great regret, cancel their accounts.

Sure, if you're single and employed, buying a new graphics card is no big deal.  If you're married, with children and a mortgage, and a spouse who stays at home to mind the children, it becomes a bigger deal.

I know people who want to play Aces High alredy, but cannot because their machines are too far behind the times.

I remember that my squad was torn asunder when AW3 came out, because not everybody had a machine that could run it.

Remember, not everybody has enough disposable cash to keep close to the leading edge on hardware, and still afford the fees of an online game.  You can say "this is standard" or "that is standard,"  but the fact is, you can't really tell based on what is selling in the stores.

[runny]

Originally posted by muckmaw

COMPUTER SYSTEM MAKEUP Over 50% of participants have between 256 and 512 MB RAM installed and the average CPU speed of those surveyed is between 700-800Mhz
VIDEO CARD The most popular video card features Nvidia's GeForce2 chip; Nvidia just released their GeForce3 chip this past spring.

Huh?  By my reading, the most popular chipset is the TNT2, followed by the GF2.