Turning with flaps. Which plane which not.

[Duedel]

Hi all,

many planes in AH have a much better turn radius when deploying flaps. But not with all planes deploying flaps in a trun fight seams to be a good idea. So I like to know which planes turn better with flaps and which planes not. The Bf110 G-2 for example has a really good turn radius with flaps deployed. The turn ratio however seams to be very high i.e. it need much time to make a 360deg turn.

[SKurj]

Duedel... in ALL aircraft flaps deployed or not, when you get below your best turn speed, turn rate will suffer.  

In most of the fighters you will find your best turns happen when your speed is around 200ish (i think, it may be abit higher).  I think this is the lowest speed a fighter can pull 9gee..(can someone confirm?)

At speeds above this optimum, your turn will have a large diameter, but may still have a decent turn rate.  At speeds below...  your turn diameter maybe tiny, but as you found your turn rate is poor.

This is how p51's CAN outturn things like spits +)    If the 51 is at his best turn speed and the spit is going too fast....  you can guess the rest.



"WTF!!!! that La7 just outturned a spit!!!!"....  well now ya know the most likely reason

As far as which planes turn better with flaps...  I think most of the planeset, will turn better at their optimum turn speed without flaps.   As speeds get slow the flaps will slow you down permitting a smaller diameter turn with more control (delayin stall).

Flaps can also help to keep your speed close to the optimum speed in a downward spiral.  This is a classic move in p51's and 38's to turn nose low and drop flaps to keep the speed from causing the spiral to have too large a diameter and to force your opponent to overshoot either vertically or forcing him into lag pursuit.

Geez... this topic is one that can go on and on...
Hope I helped some


SKurj

[Duedel]

Thx SKurj

AFAIK the best turn rate is optained at "corner speed" means u are turning at the corner of a stall.  If u delpoy flaps I figured out that sometimes i can turn into the enemy. So OK, turn rate suffers from deploying flaps but turn radius seams to me (sometimes) more important to get a short snap shot, right?

These things are killing me. It's very hard to get a picture of it in ur mind.
Even all the graphics I've painted don't help me

[Xjazz]

S! Duedel!

Check this out



Its from this AH topic.

[SKurj]

Well.... yes and no Duedel...

By decreasing your radius, (therefore decreasing speed and decreasing turn rate) it may actually take LONGER to point the nose in front of the enemy aircraft for the snap shot.....

At the moment u drop the flaps perhaps the nose will come around abit giving you the lead you need....  or maybe not...

Some aircraft will benefit from deploying flaps, like the 51, 38, jug, 109 (and likely many others) while for some, you may as well just cut throttle because all they will do is act like an airbrake (190 for example)

Perhaps some players with more knowledge can step in with which planes flaps are pointless and otherwise.


SKurj

[Duedel]

XJazz

YES great thx, I always wanted to see those energy maneuveability diagramms for all planes modeled in AH, especially for my beloved 190A5 and 110G2.

The problem is that those diagramms don't show the behaviour when deploying flaps.

[Innominate]

Does anyone have a copy of the excel spreadsheet refered to in those threads?

[humble]

Some planes have flaps configured for use in air combat...others primarily have flaps designed to help configure FM for landing.

P-38 is a great example of the 1st...spitfire a great example for the 2nd. One way to check is try and deploy flaps at 200+. Once you know if a plane even deploys flaps at "combat speed" then focus on when and how. In a pony I'll drop 1 click anytime I start to turn at speeds under 300...2 clicks as I pass 225 or so. Couple general comments here...I work the throttle hard...even in a pony...at heart I'm an angles fighter so I'll always give up the E for a nice shot. I'm also far from the best stick in here so there are other/maybe "better" ways to approach this.

I use flaps (and throttle) simply to pull lead...if I come of gas...pop flaps...or both. I want to saw something of the con in return for the lost E. As an angles fighter E exists to be exchanged for a shot...you can have to much...If im cornering at 275 in a pony slightly in lag on spit...if I chop throttle and drop that 2nd notch I can sneak inside the spit in a 1/4 turn. On def if I have a la-7 coming hard...I can go hard left...chop and pop 1/2 flaps as I rev right and force an overshoot (or a 90 deg role away and pull if he's good). Both are same concept one off other def in application.

Now on the other flaps...only drop them if your going to stall...or if your going to slow as far as possible. Basically at 140 or less they may buy you another turn or two.

[Badboy]

Originally posted by Duedel


The problem is that those diagramms don't show the behaviour when deploying flaps.

But they can easily show the behaviour when the flaps are deployed, here is an EM Diagram for the P-38 that shows the effect of 4 and 5 notches of flaps:

P-38 EM diagram showing effect of flaps

Notice that when the 4 or 5 notches of flaps are first deployed there is an initial increase in the instantaneous turn rate of as much as 10dps, but it doesn't last long, because as the speed drops you notice that the sustained turn rate is almost exactly the same as it was before the flaps were deployed.

However, notice also that deploying the flaps results in a significant reduction in the turn radius, that is permanent, as long as the flaps remain down. The effect can be seen more clearly in this diagram:

P-38 Turn Radius comparison for flaps

I prefer to rely on a full analysis before making judgments about flaps because it isn’t possible to generalise, what I would say is that fowler flaps (like the P-38) or slotted flaps, are far more likely to be effective in combat than plain or split flaps.  

Badboy

[haa]

Originally posted by Innominate
Does anyone have a copy of the excel spreadsheet refered to in those threads?

Here it is. I had a version with a few more planes but I seem to have misplaced it somewhere.

[akak]

Badz, both links for your diagrams come up with a 404 error.  



ack-ack

[Duedel]

HA! Badboy great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[akak]

Originally posted by akak
Badz, both links for your diagrams come up with a 404 error.  



ack-ack

never mind, Nutscraper 4.79 can't read it but IE can.  Go figure.


ack-ack

[Innominate]

Originally posted by akak


never mind, Nutscraper 4.79 can't read it but IE can.  Go figure.


ack-ack

damn akak, go get a copy of mozilla.

[akak]

Originally posted by Innominate


damn akak, go get a copy of mozilla.

Screw Mozilla, it's owned by AOHELL now.


ack-ack