Author Topic: New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power  (Read 732 times)

Offline 28sweep

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 324
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« on: September 09, 2002, 10:49:49 AM »
Here it is:


The Kursk which sank in 354 feet of water in the Barents Sea on August 12 with 118 on board, was an Oscar II-type nuclear cruise missile submarine — the leading submarine participating in the largest naval exercise the Russian North Fleet had staged in a decade.

 The vessel, according to the London-based Soviet Analyst, was engaged in the mock sinking of US submarines and aircraft carriers, and was under observation by two US submarines located some 50 miles from the scene, together with several other allied monitoring vessels.

 THE KURSK WAS ALSO TESTING A NEW WEAPONS SYSTEM, A SUPERFAST TORPEDO THAT TRAVELS AT SPEEDS OF OVER 230 MPH.

 Scientific American reported in its May edition that the supersophisticated torpedoes have been linked to the sinking of the Kursk last August, and even to the arrest and imprisonment of Edmond Pope.

 Pope, an American businessman, was charged by Russian authorities with spying, specifically that he had sought to buy plans for the “ultrahigh-speed torpedo.”

 “Evidence does suggest” said Scientific American, “ that both incidents revolved around an amazing and little-reported technology that allows naval weapons and vessels to travel submerged at hundreds of miles per hour – in some cases, faster than the speed of sound in water.”

 The new technology that allows for these superfast torpedoes “is based on the physical phenomenon of supercavitation.”

 According to Scientific American, the new generation of torpedoes, some believed capable of carrying nuclear warheads, are surrounded by a “renewable envelope of gas so that the liquid wets very little of the body's surface, thereby drastically reducing the viscous drag” on the torpedo.

 The new technology “could mean a quantum leap in naval warfare that is analogous in some ways to the move from prop planes to jets or even to rockets and missiles.”

 In 1997 Russia announced that it had developed a high-speed unguided underwater torpedo, which has no equivalent in the West. Code-named the Shkval or “Squall,” the Russian torpedo reportedly travels so fast that no U.S. defense can stop it.

 In late 2000, after the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk, new reports began circulating that the Chinese navy had bought the Shkval torpedo.

 “The Shkval” stated Richard Fisher, a defense analyst and senior fellow at the Jamestown Foundation, “was designed to give Soviet subs with less capable sonar the ability to kill U.S. submarines before U.S. wire-guided anti-sub torpedoes could reach their target. The Chinese navy would certainly want to have this kind of advantage over U.S. subs in the future. At the speed that it travels, the Shkval could literally punch a hole in most U.S. ships, with little need for an explosive warhead.”

 “This torpedo travels at a speed of 200 knots, or five to six times the speed of a normal torpedo, and is especially suited for attacking large ships such as aircraft carriers,” Fisher said.

 Though the exact cause of the sinking of the Kursk was never officially stated, the Associated Press reported in January that seismic analysis of shock waves suggests that two successive onboard explosions destroyed the submarine. “The first explosion was relatively small, consistent with a misfiring torpedo aboard the submarine Kursk” said a report by Arizona and New Mexico researchers published in the January 23 geophysical journal Eos. The blast was followed about two minutes later by a second blast 250 times larger than the first”, the researchers said.

 “The size of the second explosion was so great” said the study, “that it is unlikely any submariner could have survived the corresponding pressure pulse.”

 As for the Shkval, it is a 6,000-pound rocket torpedo, about 27 feet long with a range of about 7,500 yards. It can fly through the water at more than 230 miles an hour.

 The solid-rocket-propelled “torpedo” achieves this high speed by producing a high-pressure stream of bubbles from its nose and skin, which coats the weapon in a thin layer of gas. The Shkval flies underwater inside a giant “envelope” of gas bubbles in a process called “supercavitation.”

 The Shkval is so fast that it is guided by an autopilot rather than by a homing head as on most torpedoes. The original Shkval was designed to carry a tactical nuclear warhead detonated by a simple timer clock. However, the Russians recently began advertising a homing version, which runs out at very high speed, then slows to search for its target.

 “As there are no known countermeasures to such a weapon,” stated David Miler in an April 1995 article “Supercavitation Going to War in a Bubble” (Jane’s Intelligence Review) “its development could have significant effect on future maritime operations, both surface and subsurface, and could be put Western naval forces at a considerable disadvantage.”

 Scientific American reports that China has purchased around 40 Shkval torpedoes from Kazakstan, “raising the possibility that Beijing could threaten American naval forces in a future confrontation in the Taiwan Strait.” The magazine also says that a Chinese submarine officer was on board the ill-fated Kursk “to observe the test of the new version of the Shkval.”

 This report makes clear that Russia has not converted, nor is the world on the threshold the peace that will mark the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.

 On the contrary, Russia is perfecting cutting-edge weaponry of which the West has no equivalent. It sells this weaponry to Communist China, a nation whose military arsenal is growing at an alarming rate

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2002, 11:34:42 AM »
I thought this was common knowledge.  I heard about the super-cavitating, rocket torpedo well before the Kursk sank.  There were article about the US and Canada trying to purchase the technology.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2002, 11:36:54 AM by Thrawn »

Offline Sikboy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6702
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2002, 11:39:37 AM »
Without commenting on the Shkval in particular, I do find it very interesting that Russian Efforts seem to be concentrating on weapons systems that can be fitted to existing platforms. The next generation of ASM coming out of Russia appears to be a compleately self contained weapons canister. Just buy a few attatch them to your existing surface units via staples and krazy glue, and viola! you can challenge anyone for control of the sea. This makes a lot of sense for both export (you can increase your clientel without having to convince them to buy entire new platforms) plus production costs per unit are significantly less.

As a former Sailor who continues to follow Naval developments, Weapons systems like the Yakhont Missile and the Shkval torpedo scare the crap outta me. But we don't know enough about thier operational capabilities to get too worked up about them. At the same time however, we need to make sure that we stay on top of these developments to prevent any surprises should these weapons ever be employed against us.

-Sikboy
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2002, 11:43:14 AM »
Aw well, If they perform like they did on the Kursk... we're still safe :D
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Mister Fork

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7294
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2002, 03:49:07 PM »
Here's a pic of it...

"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
Re: New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2002, 03:55:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 28sweep


“Evidence does suggest” said Scientific American, “ that both incidents revolved around an amazing and little-reported technology that allows naval weapons and vessels to travel submerged at hundreds of miles per hour – in some cases, faster than the speed of sound in water.”



speed of sound in water = 1482 m/s at 20°C = 4862.2 ft / sec

or nearly four times the muzzle velocity of a 9mm pistol


Be careful of what you read.  It was written by journalists who write about other peoples knowledge: they may not comprehend what they write.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2002, 04:01:08 PM »
"Unguided"

And I wonder if those US subs 50 miles away were detected?

AKDejaVu

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2002, 04:05:16 PM »
And a question for some engineers out there...

If you fire this weapon and rely on cavitation for the higher velocity, wouldn't an unguided weapon be affected by gravity?  I see some fins there, but those tiny points would have to be supporting the entire weight of the weapon to keep it from dropping.

AKDejaVu

Offline Tracer-15

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
      • http://www.geocities.com/drenched15/mypage.html
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2002, 04:15:45 PM »
1.  didnt we not mention 230MPH....at 7000yards theres no way in hell to get out of the way...

2.  For longer ranges and against US boomers they would have been armed with a nuke....no precision guidance needed

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2002, 04:26:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tracer-15
1.  didnt we not mention 230MPH....at 7000yards theres no way in hell to get out of the way...
That's about 1 minute of travel time.  That's 880 feet of travel for a vessel doing 10 mph... I agree that a surface vessel would in deep, but a sub has additional options.
Quote
2.  For longer ranges and against US boomers they would have been armed with a nuke....no precision guidance needed
LOL! OK... I'm curious as to how far "longer ranges" are.  I've seen underwater detonations of nukes on film and can't imagine that would be an effective sub vs sub defense system.

So.. you're talking 230 unguided vs 75 guided.  I'll take the guided... with or without the nuke.

Now.. if they could launch one of these and figure out a way to guide it... whoa!

AKDejaVu

Offline wulfie

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 792
      • http://www.twinkies.com/index.asp
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2002, 04:27:22 PM »
They may have been testing a new weapon but the consensus from *some* in the Russian Navy and *most* other Nations' Naval 'investigators' is that the accident was caused by the malfunction of a standard Russian torpedo.

The ultra short version - a malfunction caused a torpedo engine to 'go hot', and as it wasn't in the water (with the water to limit the RPMs) the inside of the torp. got 'shook up' too much, a volatile fuel substance got where it shouldn't have been (inside the torp.) which cause the torp. to explode in such a manner that the other torp. 'went high order' and that was the end for the submarine.

Mike/wulfie

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2002, 04:47:45 PM »
The chief problem with the supercavitation torpedo is that there seems to be no way to control it's direction - probably beyong a miniscule amounts generated by controlling jet exaust. Any such attempt would bring a surface of the torpedo in contact with water and at such speeds it would cartwheel and be destryed.
 Neither it seems possible to have any fins protruding beyong the vapor envelope.
 So far this kind of torpedo is more like a bullet - fast but unguided.

 miko

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2002, 04:54:34 PM »
I'm curious here.  How effective would counter-measures be?  Could not a device with a high-explosive warhead be launched toward the oncoming Shkval torpedo and be programmed to explode when within a certain distance of it, disrupting it's programming or destroying it entirely with the shock wave?  I presume studies are already being done of possible counter-measures.  Does anyone know anything about them?

 Regards, Shuckins

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2002, 04:59:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
The chief problem with the supercavitation torpedo is that there seems to be no way to control it's direction - probably beyong a miniscule amounts generated by controlling jet exaust. Any such attempt would bring a surface of the torpedo in contact with water and at such speeds it would cartwheel and be destryed.
 Neither it seems possible to have any fins protruding beyong the vapor envelope.
 So far this kind of torpedo is more like a bullet - fast but unguided.
Seems you could guide the direction with a type of jet (Water or neumatic) or potentially with subtle changes to the direction of the cavitation generator.  Some things that would be very difficult would be getting any kind of guidance system to function in that environment.  The cavitation in combination with the water would make most radar/sonar combinations ineffective.  A wire system would be difficult to impliment given the speeds involved.

AKDejaVu

Offline Elfenwolf

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
New Torpedo Changes Balance of Naval Power
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2002, 05:17:22 PM »
Does this mean that I have to start working on my backyard bomb shelter again?