New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!

[Geeesy]

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
If your point is that a pilot with a given K/D flying a P47D-11 is better than a pilot with the same K/D flying a Spit IX, I would say that in many cases you would be correct.

Depends on the K/D ratio you're thinking about. About 1 or 1.5 you may be right, but anything higher you also need a very good Spitfire pilot to make that while you maybe need only a very patience and foreseeing Jug pilot for the same. The Jug wrong flown is an easy target but if you keep enough distance between you and the ground you can also disengage nearly any fight at will, except against a very few faster planes like the 262. The Spitfire isn't a good plane to hit the deck and run. You won't come far with that tactic, which actually is quite simple for the worst pilots. Additional Spitfires and all the other so called dweebplanes are number one targets in the main. I can't speak for all, but if I see a Spit and a Jug together I'll do my best to get the Spit first, and I see enough pilots doing the same too. So surviving the Spit ride is an art on its own. Flying a Spitfire with a K/D of 2 to 10 really isn't something less respectable than flying the P47 with that K/D's.
For example I've flown the Jug here ocassionaly with about the one time 9 kills in one sortie and another time 11 (P47-D30, in D-11 the max was something about 4 or 5), without refueling. I've flown the Spit IX and V nearly as often as the Jug (which are very a few times) but there my best sortie is at 3 kills, if I even come to get something to kill before I get shot down.
So well as a Dweeb I maybe have to say now that the P47 is a Dweebplane while the Spitfire is an experten plane. But actually the spit is just as I said a simple plane with some very major disadvantages with which the pilot have to deal with in order to fly it succesfull, as do the P-51, P-47 and 109 pilots with their disadvantages. The disadvanteges of the Jug are just a bit easier for me to deal with than the ones of the Spit. For others that may be the other way round.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Maybe some of us Spitdweebs have flown a large collection of planes regularly and with a great deal of success over the years, but we have decided to fly Spits because they're fun and a challenge in their own right.

Magic planes.  LOL!

There will always be people whose experience and talent make them superior fliers in whatever plane they pick, and you, of course, are one.  For these people, it really doesn’t matter what they fly, they will be successful.  For the rest of us (which, I think, is probably the most of us), aircraft type has a significant effect on our ability to get kills.  I really don’t want to resuscitate the age-old Spitfire debate, but I do think that one has to be rationalizing - or hallucinating - to avoid the conclusion that the Spit (at least the 5 and 9) is one of the easiest planes in which to get kills. Hey, there’s always going to be such a plane.  If there were no Spit, it would probably be the Niki, and so on.  New pilots should certainly fly these planes, because they have so many other things to think about, that later become second nature.  I just think that, once some skill is acquired, the training wheels should come off the bike.

- oldman

[LoneStarBuckeye]

Oldman:

I'm not sure why you are so adamant that the Spits are among the easiest planes in which to get kills.  Perhaps you have flown them and know that from experience.  Fair enough.  From my limited experience, I would agree that it is sometimes easier to get kills in a furball in a Spit V or IX than it is in a 109, 190, or P51.  Nonetheless, that "advantage" is substantially--if not completely--outweighed by the Spits' inability to flee the scene and survive.  Unlike a faster, pure energy fighter, a Spit generally has no option but to fight his way home.  

So, even if it is true that it is relatively easy to get kills in a Spit, that does not mean that it is relatively easy to maintain a good K/D ratio in a Spit.  Indeed, I would imagine that most good P51, P47, 190, and 109 drivers have very high K/D ratios against all of the Spits.  When one of those planes dies to a Spit, it is only because its pilot allowed the Spit to kill it.  They all have the ability to engage or disengage with the Spit at will.

- JNOV

[J_A_B]

You and Oldman are discussing different points, and you're both right.

It is easier for the new player with little knowledge of flying to get kills in a Spit than a P51 or Dora.   Likewise, it's easier for a player to survive and run away in a P-51 or Dora than in a Spit.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the N1K2's or Spits.  They're great for new players and even some vets stick with them (not so many here as in AW).

The only real reason to ever switch planes has nothing to do with a "dweeb" label.  As you gain experience, you might find an airplane which better suits your flying style or idea of fun.  That is when you switch airplanes.  

I started out in the Spit (Spit 9 was the only one in the game at that time) back in AW.  Eventually I got to a point where I could hold my own fairly well 1 vs 1; that didn't help me much when I'd get stuck in 5 vs 1's.  I selected a different plane that would allow me to get away from any potential "gang"....I picked it for one reason and one reason only...fastest plane in the game at low levels.....so I became a P-51 driver.   I can say that it never let me down  

I fly the 51D in AH because I trusted it so much in AW (I really couldn't care less about its historical rep)....the irony is it lacks the ability in AH that caused me to select it in AW in the first place!

So there's a lot of different reasons to pick a plane, and all of them are valid.  

J_A_B

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
So, even if it is true that it is relatively easy to get kills in a Spit, that does not mean that it is relatively easy to maintain a good K/D ratio in a Spit.  Indeed, I would imagine that most good P51, P47, 190, and 109 drivers have very high K/D ratios against all of the Spits.  When one of those planes dies to a Spit, it is only because its pilot allowed the Spit to kill it.  They all have the ability to engage or disengage with the Spit at will.

True.  At this point we have diverged in goals.  If your goal is to maximize your kill-to-death ratio, it's obviously wise to stay alive and to swoop down to attack only when you can get away if you miss.  I agree with you that the Spit is probably not the best plane for that style, although the 9s are not bad at it.  But isn't this what you were originally worried about, that you would train people into bad habits?  There's a lot more to this game than maximizing your kill to death ratio, or any other score, for that matter.

- oldman

[LoneStarBuckeye]

Oldman:

Agreed.  I was not originally (and am not now) worried about maximizing one's K/D ratio.  My original intent was to suggest that the Spits were good planes in which to learn ACM.

By my last post regarding K/D, I simply meant to illustrate that the allegedly "magic" Spits, like all planes, have disadvantages that offset their strengths.  

I am curious, though.  What are the "bad habits" to which you refer?  I submit that if you fly a Spit and consistently improve your K/D ratio, you likely are not developing bad habits.  (At least not "technical" bad habits like pulling until you burn all of your energy--who knows about other sorts of "bad habits" like leaving your wingmates stranded, refusing to engage without numerical superiority, etc.?)  Indeed, you probably are developing at least good situational awareness and hopefully some ACM skill as well.  

I know that it's a popular idea, but if you're suggesting that scores are no indication of ability, I reject that notion out of hand.  I have fought and died at the hand of pilots with a K/D > 10 or so and, as far as I can tell (which, granted, may not be all that far), they didn't earn that number by being a slouch behind the stick.  Sure, there are always ways to "game the game," but I don't think that one's scores are meaningless.  In particular, scores can be meaningful to the individual who is aware of how he has flown over the course of successive tours, as a way to chart his progress.

- JNOV

[SpinDoc1]

These are all excellent and intelligent replies to the discussion. I am going to save this post in my file of great AH topics!

Jason

[Urchin]

I agree with both sides, either that or I agree with niether side...

When I first started playing, I decided right away that I liked the German planes.  I flew the 109 and the 190, and I sucked hugely at both of them lol.  I was awful.  

However, I do think that flying one of the more 'mediocre' planes is the way to learn fast if you are a new pilot that wants to learn how to fight.  If you are a new pilot that wants to get some kills, a Spit or a N1K is definately the way to go.  If you are a new pilot that wants to run away and hardly ever die, you can fly a La-7, P-51D, Tiffie, or 190-D9.  But, if you are a new pilot that wants to learn how to FIGHT, and fight well, I'd recommend something like the P-38, C205, 190-A5, or 109G-2.  Those planes are faster than the Spit and N1K2, but dont turn as well, so you have to learn to use your Energy wisely in order to kill those planes.  Likewise, they are slower than the La-7 and company, but by and large they turn better, so you have to learn how to use angles and turnfighting tactics to come out the winner in those fights.  

I think flying one of the 'jack of all trades' planes makes you a better pilot faster than flying either a turnfighter or a straight BnZ/ run like a chicken planes.  Plus, you have the foundation for flying ANY plane successfully once you've mastered one of the 'middle of the road planes'.

[Mathman]

Fly whatever damn plane you want.  Who cares if you suck in it initially?  I sure don't, nor do I think that anyone besides you does either.

I fly the Hellcat for one reason and one reason alone.  It is my 2nd favorite plane ever (behind the F-14, and for some reason, I don't see us getting that one anytime soon).  I fly it because I like it.  I don't fly it for any perceived or real strengths or weaknesses.  I sucked at it in the beginning, but have gradually improved to adequate.  Find a plane that you like and learn to fly it.  Or, you could fly all sorts of planes and like all of them.

The beauty of AH is the fact that you can choose what plane you want to fly.  Nobody chooses for you, even though many here would like you to fly a goon.

Have fun, relax, learn, enjoy.  Nothing else you need to do.

-Math

[thrila]

Maybe i'm wierd (well i'm kinda weird anyway) but i actually find it harder to get kills in the spit than the tiffie.  Why? because in a speed demon all you have to do is get on the con's 6 and run them down.  They make an evasive? simple, perform a yo-yo or some other vertical related manouver and come back on their 6.  Eventually you'll kill them because they can't escape.  I find it more challenging getting kills in the spitfire.


IMO flying the tiffie actually made me a worse pilot not a better one.  The most used ACM was the "point the nose down and run".  I actually forgot how to perform barrel rolls- i had to go offline and using film re-learn how to do them properly.


P.S. I love spits:)

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
I am curious, though.  What are the "bad habits" to which you refer?  I submit that if you fly a Spit and consistently improve your K/D ratio, you likely are not developing bad habits.  (At least not "technical" bad habits like pulling until you burn all of your energy--who knows about other sorts of "bad habits" like leaving your wingmates stranded, refusing to engage without numerical superiority, etc.?)  Indeed, you probably are developing at least good situational awareness and hopefully some ACM skill as well.

Hmmm.  What I had originally meant was that it seemed likely to me that an obsession with k/d ratios, or with scores in general, could easily lead you to become a one-dimensional b&z pilot, and/or a ganger/vulcher/milkrunner....the sort of things you are naming above.

I know that it's a popular idea, but if you're suggesting that scores are no indication of ability, I reject that notion out of hand.  

Heh heh.  First I got dragged into the Spitdweeb Controversy, now into the Pointmonger Debate.  (Sounds like two Ludlum novels.)  And here I draw a line.  AH stresses points in a way that I am not used to.  Lots of people fly for their points, ranks, kills-per-hour ratios or whatever.  I am not going to make fun of these endeavors.  (Oldman ducks as tomato passes overhead.)   Certainly I will never be near the top of any of these categories; even if I had the skill, I lack the patience to wait around until the numbers are right, or I have an energy advantage, or whatever.  I will accept your assertion that scores are an indication of competence, simply because I have not bothered to check them out to see if the top-scoring pilots are the ones who seem the best to me in a dogfight.  (Pie hits side of Oldman's face.)

- oldman

[LoneStarBuckeye]

Oldman:

Thanks for the posts and debate.  I hesitate to "argue" with someone who is surely more skilled and more experienced than I, but you have been very sporting to indulge me.  I think it's best to let this meandering thread die an overdue death!

- JNOV

[SkyWorm]

What or how is the difference between a member, junior, senior, i been in here for one year.

[fuzeman]

Originally posted by SkyWorm
What or how is the difference between a member, junior, senior, i been in here for one year.

It has to do with the number of NEW posts you make, not replies to posts. I believe after posting 100 threads you get Senior status.
But it still won't get you the Senior discount at McDonalds.

fuzeman

[Gixer]

Mc Donalds have a seniors discount??? WOW, learn something every day..

As for flying spits, I use to spend a great deal of time flying no higher then 5k and then onto 10k. Thinking that you learn quicker always starting off at a disadvantage and getting bounced by higher and faster foes then the other way around.

Then again I don't consider myself anywhere near experienced enough to comment on ACM and AH. Just my 2 cents.




...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers


"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing.  (sign over the entrance to the SR-71 operating location Kadena, Japan)."