Furballs are so wonderful!

[Seeker]

I'm not against the game having more depth; and yes, furballing can become tiring.

But this evening was a perfect example of what I hate.

There was a tremendous battle around 38, which was continually bombed to hell. Absolutly nothing wrong with that, that's how it's done. What got my goat was that the four closest fields to the action had the FH's taken down (and ONLY the FH's), the fith and sixth were 50% fuel. Very well planned, and in a begrudging way I salute the execution. But I'm here to fly and fight, and I couldn't. It's almost (if one were truly anal about such things) a denial of service.

This morning I experienced the 'Dar being down for the first time. Now, I could understand if this were an effect local to a particular field under attack, it would be of value, but to have the dar down arena wide is pathetic. I spent twenty minutes flying aimlessly around looking for some one to fight, then logged. If merely flying around was my aim, I'd fly FS 2000.

I'd be interested if you can find in your self to see that this IS a problem for some temperaments (mine certainly); and if you can, would you have any proposals? Please don't say go fly head to head, HT makes no money fron that.

OT side note, Anarky, you thought of putting "Dieppe" up as an event here?

[lazs]

LOL deja... I was not gonna ever bring up "styles" but I think most here who have fought me including the 13th will disagree about me allways having a numerical advantage.   I go in pretty low and usually stay too long in a plane (corsair D) not really meant for that.   I don't like imbalance either way but i like action..  If there are more greens than reds that is fine so long as there are plenty.  

Hiding in the ack at cv?  LOL you phony... It's like.. the cv is right on the field.  reds are circling just out of the ack at alt... I should come out of the ack into a red ball at low alt?   I aint a suicide bomber bud.  

Now... your style.... I am shocked you arent thrown out of your squad.  You use everyuone in your squad for bait.   You have killed me many times but you have never fought me... NOT EVEN ONCE.   every time you kill me you are high above the fray in a Yak or something that accelerates and climbs well.. waiting for someone to get low and slow on on the six of one of your squaddies.   That's fine but you are so timid That I kill one or two of your squaddies before you deem it safe enough to risk your precious ego you hypocrite.   In our squad we joke about you... We all know which plane is yours in your squad.   We don't even bother to chase you off.   Too much work for no real fun and there are other people more fun with less of an ego problem to fight.

I do find most of your squaddies are fun to mix it up with and I bet that they are about sick of your "help".  I bet I would not be having such a lopsided K/D against your squaddies if you would just get down there at the beggining and give em a hand.  

I bet that I have never had more than 4 squaddies on with me and the average is about three.   I bet that we are facing more of your squaddies allmost every time.  

One thing for sure... No one in either squad flies as cowardly as you do.  
lazs

[anRky]

Seeker wrote:
-----------------------------------------
OT side note, Anarky, you thought of putting "Dieppe" up as an event here?
-----------------------------------------

Well, we do pretty much have the planeset--for a 1942 battle at that!  The only glaring omission is a Hurri IIc.  Would be nice to have a Do-217 and Boston, too.  Maybe an earlier 190.  
 
But since I barely have an hour a night for AH in the first place(and I'm buying a house Friday, with a huge garden that's going to take up lots and lots of my time), no, I haven't thought of it.

But it is a great idea!  Just think of what could be done with the carrier fleets (unable to launch or land planes, of course), and maybe PT boats as some sort of landing craft...  There need to be mannable large gun emplacements on the shore, too, to shoot back at the fleet.  Maybe some soft targets on the beach that would emit a lot of smoke if hit (to simulate smoke laying missions for the allied bombers).  And the massive 190/109/Spit furball on top of it all...

Drool.

anRky
-Ih8ubb
'Get rid of the bucket!'

[AKDejaVu]

Lazs, I've seen you get 1 kill on a squadie when I was present.  You were killed 5 seconds later.  Your squadie got me 10 seconds after that.

I've also chased you out of a battle before Lazs... way out, closing slowly on you at low level...just you and me... having you reverse then dive for an incoming squadie... then begin a series of low level scissors and still die.  At no time did I know the con in front of me was you... except the time you got my squadie.  So.. whereas your memory seems to be quite selective.. mine actually noted your styles at the times.. as well as your tactics.  I'm not here just genearilizing about your styles or your ACM.. I've actually had you in front of me.  

I've been bait as much as I've thrown it out.  All of our squad clears and gets cleared.  Nobody is exempt from those duties.  From what I've seen, you know what I'm talking about.

And I wasn't refering to advantages in numbers per se.. but rather the fact that 4 sqaudies on RW will go into a furball against others that are not is an advantage that many squads enjoy.  To have the enemy at a non-cooperative disadvantage suits particular styles.  Especially in a target rich, fixation rich environment.

You'll find my gunnery percentage is quite a bit higher than yours lazs.  I get on someone's 6 with the intention of shooting them down at close range.  I conserve my ammo for higher % shots and try to shoot smart.  My cannons are not particularly effective over 400 yards and I believe I have only had 1 kill out past that range.

That means I have to work into position against any enemy I kill.  I have to figure out how to stay out of his sights while actually getting behind him.  That is somewhat difficult in a 1:1.  That is childsplay in a furball.  Yet.. many still insist that furballing is the way to improve your skills.

AKDejaVu

[lazs]

deja..  You really don't know what goes on in our squad.  We really do have very few guys on at any one time and some times half of em will be very new.   One has never flown any sim boxed or otherwise before.   We really do like huge furballs that are evenly matched... We are a fun squad and we do actually get a kick out of stealing each others kills.  sounds like 13th do that a little too.

Despite what we say about each other... People have fought us both and have their own opinions.   That is how it should be.   Most people know that stats don't tell the story either.   nobody knows what anybody else is trying to do unless that person anounces it..  Oh, you better have a lot better gunnery in a yak than me in a DHog.   You better wait for your shot and not spray ammo to scare off cons or get em to make a mistake or straf stuff.  Lot of people are glad I spray ammo around... Can't imagine that all that many are thrilled that you work a con and wait for your shot.

I think you are stuck here with the problem that you can't kill the message so you are trying to discredit the messenger.   Problem is, you are pretty much going off on everyone who doesn't fly exactly as you do.

Anarky said it best... "Well I, for one, haven't had a squadmate in years, and being one of the 'unorganized' much prefer
            flying unorganized in a 'furball' environment than flying unorganized in a 'strat game' environment."  

but the most telling thing is that you have pretty much made my point with all this... A lot of people like myself who would love to get into large evenly matched melees (and typicaly have in the past), can't anymore.  We are stuck with this lopsided fighting for scraps arena....

All the furballs are short lived and lopsided..  When you limit fighter ability so easily then the cons are spred out all over and have either lost their base and slowly bleed to death cause they are ounumbered with no hope of getting reiforcements that are meanighful or, end of circling a closed one waiting for the dribs and drabs that may blunder in...

I can chose to be one of the blunderers or the seal clubbers but I find very few of the old long lasting furballs that I used to enjoy.   I can of course, "organize" and go club some field into submission or I can fill a squad with very fast planes and B&Z stragglers..  

Nothing wrong with either of those things but I just don't enjoy em.   It seems that many agree with me.  I am not about taking away your's (or anyone elses) choices.  I am about adding choice and variety.   I don't believe that we will ever have, nor do I want, an arena where everyone is organized so why not have some opportunity for fun also?   U are happy with a furball once in a great while I am happy with an organized strike once in a while.   There is room for both styles all the time.
lazs

[AKDejaVu]

 

I think you are stuck here with the problem that you can't kill the message so you are trying to discredit the messenger. Problem is, you are pretty much going off on everyone who doesn't fly exactly as you do.

I think its actually quite opposite lazs.  I think you are stuck in the rut where you think that because you find the furballs in the current MA more fun than anything else, then logically and endless furball would be even more fun.

I think that an endless furball area would actually create two different arenas.  One arena where people mindlessly fly in a manner that is more like a quake frag fest than actually flying... without regard for anything else... ever.  The other in an arena where they can mindlessly attack bases because most that would normally be there to greet them are mindlessly doing something else.

It is already starting to rear its ugly head right now.  These days, someone takes a CV to a base and starts to attack it as the other country responds and starts to defend it.  A massive furball starts as JABO comes in to attempt to take out the hangars.  The do or don't succeed and everyone clashes.  Eventually one side seems the other is too close to capturing the base and decides to bomb the CV.  They are rewarded by coming back to the bbs and enduring endless threads on how this ruined everone's fun.  The thing is, everyone isn't adding to these threads... just the people that misunderstood (or forgot) why the furball was occuring in the first place.

The base-capture element of the game is what promotes the giant conflicts.  At some point in every fight, it turns more towards ground attack or towards air combat... but not endlessly either way.  That is good, though some fail to realize that.

When a seperate "arena" is created for seperate flying styles, you now have people just base-attacking in one arena and just dog-fighting in another.  No real point to either anymore.  You've taken any sense of purpose away from either pilot.  All because you are too dim to see any reason for a "sense of purpose".

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

Just to add.. the reason it got personal lazs is because you are promoting from the view of what you like.  You like furballs.. you like to kill people in furballs.. you like the type of action you see in furballs.

I've seen you run out of furballs lazs.. so the action isn't the only thing for you.  You think about survival even if it means sucking up precisious "I should be fighting" time.  So, getting to the battle faster isn't your only concern.

A target rich target fixated environment is what you are looking for. The environment where someone can know that there is relative anonymity and provided you are in a low-key enough plane, you could actually fly almost invisibly... just waiting for the right target to be looking the other way.

I also bring it to a personal level because you have a pension for automatically labeling anyone that is going to disagree with you in the first post of a thread.  Strat potato, strat dweeb or whatever.  You start it off personaly.  You also assume that if I don't like the idea of a furball island, I am totally against furballs and everything that is dogfighting.

I am not.  I just believe that certain people hold a very narrow view of what they consider dogfighting to be... both in action and in purpose.  Its ironic that I get labeled narrow-minded in response.

So.. I bring up that every time I have seen you, its been in a furball.  I specifically remember two of those furballs being CVs hitting our bases with hangars frequently going down at those bases.  Both of those times, when one side finally prevailed, you came on this BBS and complained about how they ruined your fun.

AKDejaVu

[anRky]

AKDejaVu wrote:
--------------------------------------------
When a seperate "arena" is created for seperate flying styles, you now have people just base-attacking in one arena and just dog-fighting in another.  No real point to either anymore.  You've taken any sense of purpose away from either pilot.  All because you are too dim to see any reason for a "sense of purpose".
------------------------------------------

There is no sense of purpose in the arena *as it is*.  It's just one big hamster wheel.  If there was something worthwhile to do in the MA (other than basically just get in some practice), I would be overjoyed.  Since I find the strat game dull and intrusive, I would really prefer not to have to deal with the strat element at all, since it gets in the way of good practice.

anRky
-Ih8ubb
'Get rid of the bucket!'

[-towd_]

what anrky said,  strat is boring to me it didnt work its just porking bases back and forth. a few numbers squads just dominate with numbers. its what made wb start to suck to me. wish i didnt have to fly with um. give the huge squads a place to bang and run from each other. let fighter pilots furball.

[AKDejaVu]

Hey Towd.. wasn't that you that hit P40 last night taking down ack with your Yak-9T so that rooks could capture it... getting shot down then returning just in time to bonzai run into an M3 sitting near the map room ready to re-capture it?

Sure looked like your id in the pilot killed text buffer.

Yeah... those strat guys are pigs.

AKDejaVu

[lazs]

deja you have no idea how i fly.   If I am leaving a furball I'm out of ammo or missing a wing or down to fumes and want to ditch and rob someone of a kill.   I am glad however that you spend so much time thinking about me and what my score is, where I am, what i'm doing...  I fly Dhogs, hardly going in with "anonimity" either they think it's a bucks up "c" or easy meat.   guessing what someone is doing (in flight sim)is fun but anouncing to everyone that you know is pompous and foolish but with your anal penchant for pidgenholing people I can understand it,

u said "The base-capture element of the game is what promotes the giant conflicts. At some point in
            every fight, it turns more towards ground attack or towards air combat... but not endlessly either
            way. That is good, though some fail to realize that."    Well... we do agree.  I have nothing against field capture except that it is kinda silly but I agree it is a good reason to fight and gather for a fite.   The problem, and where we differ is... that for some, and u are guilty, the whole idea of "strat" is to make fighters unavailable while leaving the field intact and therefore UNUSABLE BY ANYONE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.   When fields are made worthless so easily it becaomes tempting to make em worthless for several deep.  

There is no fite then.  Only a clubbing.   It doesn't "force" people to organize as you would like it just pisses em off.   The fites become lopsided and spred out and that's why a lot of people get mad.   Everyone has the choice now of doing the clubbing or bieng clubbed but not much else.   Tempers flare when a good fite is ruined these days.

Wouldn't it promote bigger and better fites if the fields were a lot harder to limit fighter availability??  Not to mention more realistic.

You indicated your fear with.... "I think that an endless furball area would actually create two different arenas. One arena where
            people mindlessly fly in a manner that is more like a quake frag fest than actually flying... without
            regard for anything else... ever. The other in an arena where they can mindlessly attack bases
            because most that would normally be there to greet them are mindlessly doing something else."..... You feel that fighting is "mindless" and you seem to indicate that you think that people won't do strat unless forced.   And that is your fear..  that people won't play your way unless they are forced.   did you ever think that some consider the current strat "mindless" and boring and just plain embarassing?
lazs  

 

[AKDejaVu]

 

The problem, and where we differ is... that for some, and u are guilty, the whole idea of "strat" is to make fighters unavailable while leaving the field intact and therefore UNUSABLE BY ANYONE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.

That is complete and total roadkill Lazs.  A two hour attempt at a base capture by one country using a CV group (near their port) and trying to ferry C47s in from a nearby base is battled by another country.  Eventually, that country grabs the port and sinks the CV capturing it.  Then you come here to squeak.

No intents to deny the field to anyone just for the sake of it.  Nothing but a capture, planned from the start and you come here and squeak about it.

Quit trying to pretend you are just trying to fight the good fight for those poor souls that are held hostage by people that would rather just see all bases closed down for the hell of it.  You take an extreme and make it sound like the norm.  The truth is, you squeak about anything.

And, I have never taken down FHs just for the hell of it.  It makes no sense to me.  Its ALWAYS been in an attempt to take the base.  But, I will say that every time I've taken down an FH, it has been so planes could not launch from ther... much like every time I've taken down a VH, its been so VHs couldn't spawn there.  Duh.

 

Wouldn't it promote bigger and better fites if the fields were a lot harder to limit fighter availability?? Not to mention more realistic.

Quite the opposite.  Even the way fields are set up right now, A well defended field is nearly impossible to take down.  If you make them even tougher, then you remove the idea of taking the base at all.. why even bother?  The problem is, you don't seem to promote the idea of climbing more than 5k to stop an attack.  So be it... just don't sit back and complain about what happens.  Its lazy.

 

You feel that fighting is "mindless" and you seem to indicate that you think that people won't do strat unless forced.

No, but thankyou for the poor paraphrase.  I feel that the furballs that exist today are part of the game and overall strategy.  If you remove those from where they are currently occuring, you adversely affect the way the game is.  You remove the purpose from either objective.

 

And that is your fear.. that people won't play your way unless they are forced.

My biggest fear?  Nah.  Forced?  And how are they forced now?  Just what the hell is it you are forced to do right now Lazs?  What great injustices are being levied on you even as we speak?  None.  You are forced to do nothing.  You can fly the way you like.  You can enter any fite you want and leave any fite you want as it stands right now.  Yet somehow, you manage to feel persecuted and demand segragation.

 

did you ever think that some consider the current strat "mindless" and boring and just plain embarassing?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how any concept of a furball island would be less mindless lazs.  "I don't want to have to worry about anything".. isn't that the concept lazs?  I want it to be very easy for me.  Isn't that the concept lazs?  "I want the fight to be in the same place all the time." This isn't mindless lazs?

As far as what the 200 people that are on each night are thinking, I don't know.. I just know that there are 200 people each night on... that's about 197 that don't come here and complain about how much it sucks.

AKDejaVu


[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-19-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Ah well.. once the thread degrades to just me and lazs participating, its time to call it quits.

AKDejaVu

[easymo]

 Got to go with laz. The main should be about fun. There are scenarios for people who want to reenact WW2.

 For me, fun is, to get into something that shoots forward, and out maneuver the guy who is also in something that only shoots forward. If it shoots up, backwards, etc.., It is just an HO, and as we all know. HO's are just connection tests.

 The only Strat I see in AH. Is to hide in the ack, and gang bang. So they put in the high alt flack, to expand the range people can hide in?

 I just want to dogfight, that is the part of the game that takes skill. And the only part that is fun.

[lazs]

deja.. you are so self absorbed and anal about this that you don't even hear what people are telling you.   It's not even that the fields are too easy or even too hard to take down or close.   IT'S THAT IT IS TOO EASY TO KILL THE FIGHTER AVAILABILITY OR... IT IS TOO HARD TO FINISH OFF THE FIELD.

If the hardness remained the same but fighters remained available till the end then.... the fights would be more even and large and fun for ALL groups.  

If the fields were easier to capture and maybe a little closer together with fighters  being available up to the end.... There would be purpose and large fights with fun for all.  Not to mention that both scenarios would be more realistic and less contrived. but....

If it remains that, any country with an excess of bombers can easily make fighters unavailable for several fields deep then the fights will continue to be lopsided and frustrating with one side circling around looking for scraps (guys stupid enough to make an outnumbered defense) and the other country with no viable place to take off from.  

You can spin it any way you want but look at the threads... people are getting tired of no place to take off and no (or few and far between) good fights.

funny thing is.... with both of the above suggestions... the furball people would have a reason to attack and defend fields and the strat people would have a reason to get into the melees but.....   Right now, The balance is off.

and as usual your hypocricy shines thru... "strat potato" is an insult beyond comprhension but "mindless" is merely descritpive?  
lazs  

[This message has been edited by lazs (edited 03-19-2001).]