Author Topic: Engine Cheese (Read 355 times)

Montezuma · « **on:** September 11, 2002, 03:45:16 AM »

Some people shut off their engine in close scissors fights to force an overshoot. I have read about pilots during the war chopping throttle, using flaps, or even lowering their gear to slow down in these situations - but never shutting off the engine.

Perhaps after stopping and restarting your engine several times, AH could introduce a random chance of engine failure.

ergRTC · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2002, 04:06:53 PM »

The only time I saw this I was in a "pull the throttle back and the plane stops like you just popped a chute" spit V. the opponent was in some kinda energy holding plane and I just had to laugh. Watching his little prop stop and start while he slowly killed himself.

I guess you will try anything at that point. Seriously wouldnt be a bad thing to have though. Would be kinda funny if you had to wait 5 secs before you could try again. I can see it now, squad night, sittin on the carrier deck, and the Golly-geen f6f wont spin over!

Toad · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2002, 12:23:44 AM »

Have you ever bumped the magneto switch to "off" with your knee while flying? Engine quits RIGHT NOW.

and starts RIGHT NOW when you flip it back to "both".

I have also had a left mag failure inflight. Didn't know it until we decided to check mag drop at full throttle.

Both (hmmmmmm) Right (hmmmmmm) Left (total silence)

Back to both and (hmmmmm) Did this a few time to make sure it wasn't the mag switch itself, trying the one in the front seat and the rear seat.

So... tell me why it should have refused to start again?

Mino · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2002, 02:23:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Have you ever bumped the magneto switch to "off" with your knee while flying? Engine quits RIGHT NOW.

and starts RIGHT NOW when you flip it back to "both".

I have also had a left mag failure inflight. Didn't know it until we decided to check mag drop at full throttle. Both (hmmmmmm) Right (hmmmmmm) Left (total silence)

Back to both and (hmmmmm) Did this a few time to make sure it wasn't the mag switch itself, trying the one in the front seat and the rear seat.

So... tell me why it should have refused to start again?

It is amazing how LOUD that QUIET can get.

Kweassa · « **Reply #4 on:** September 18, 2002, 04:33:16 AM »

..

What of engines that started with a hand crank, or engines that took more than one push of the button to start?

I'm no way near being an engineer or an actual pilot, so, quite frankly, I don't understand why there were so many steps a pilot had to go through before starting an engine, but when you play "B-17 Flying Fortress: the Mighty 8th" you notice they portrayed every detail of engine management in the game and really, it doesn't seem all that easy.

I had to ready the manual every time I upped a B-17 because I couldn't memorize all those switches and buttons, and magneto blah blah blahs .. and the start sequence of the fighters didn't seem all that simple either. I remember the Mustang start-up sequence as being relatively simple.. but it took some effort in the LW fighters.

Wouldn't those planes have at least some sort of trouble when the pilot had to turn it on again? If the engine was started once, can some of those steps be just neglected, so a single push of the magneto button would restart the engine immediately?

Toad speaks of modern prop-plane engines going ON/OFF with one touch of the button. Was this also the case with WWII fighters??

Hope someone would clarify things for me

BenDover · « **Reply #5 on:** September 18, 2002, 12:28:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm no way near being an engineer or an actual pilot, so, quite frankly, I don't understand why there were so many steps a pilot had to go through before starting an engine, but when you play "B-17 Flying Fortress: the Mighty 8th" you notice they portrayed every detail of engine management in the game and really, it doesn't seem all that easy.

I had to ready the manual every time I upped a B-17 because I couldn't memorize all those switches and buttons, and magneto blah blah blahs .. and the start sequence of the fighters didn't seem all that simple either. I remember the Mustang start-up sequence as being relatively simple.. but it took some effort in the LW fighters.

Master Switch ON
Mag ON
fuel booster pumps on
fuel mixture handle down 2 notches
flip to the co-pilots aux view
flip the engine starter switch up
wait until you can hear the engine powers up
click and hold the switch to the right of the starter until the engine fully starts

repeat each time for the other 3 engines;)

I didn't find the 190 that hard to start
Mags on
Fuel cock on
press the starter switch and wait

I also have a funny story about once when i tried to start the engine on a 262
Managed to start both engines, but it wouldn't go nowhere
Took me a while to figure out i forgot to turn the fuel cock on
So i turned it on, and the 262 took off.......................... .........into the side of another 262, lol

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2002, 02:50:17 PM »

I have never stopped an engine. Certainly not in my Corsair.

These R-2800's dont exactly turn over like your Mom's Toyota Celica. And unless I wanna unstrap myself, crawl along the cowling, screw open the ignition hatch, pull out the expended cartridge,insert another starter cartridge into the ignition breech, screw down the ignition hatch, slide back along the cowling and strap myself back into position, re-prime the engine, and HOPE it turns over...in , what...2, 3, even five seconds???

No thanks, I'll just leave that Big Mother turning! And so it should be modeled

IMO, any nut that resorts to killing an undamaged engine intentionally during combat needs to be killed in the first place!

Gainsie

Innominate · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2002, 01:56:59 PM »

If the engine is already spinning(prop windmilling) you don't need to worry about starters do you?

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2002, 02:11:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Innominate
If the engine is already spinning(prop windmilling) you don't need to worry about starters do you?

Just WORK with me, will ya?

john9001 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2002, 03:29:05 PM »

Innominate, i was gona post that , you beat me to it.

when you turn off the eng , the eng don't stop turning over unless you feather the prop ( can only do that on multi eng A/C to reduce drag, single eng A/C can't feather prop )

so you do not need a starter for mid air restarts.

and what about spit mk1 and hurri mk1 that stop under neg g's.

i doubt there would be any damage in a mid air restart, exhaust? what exhuast, a little stub pipe. it takes more than a backfire to bust something.

this whole thread ( threads) is because some body lost a fight because he thinks air craft can't turn off the eng and restart it in the air, when i get beat it's because the other pilot was better or got lucky, live with it.

44MAG

PS...Innominate? hey didn't you shoot me down 2 nights ago? you weren't gameing the game were you

Wotan · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2002, 03:47:03 PM »

guys this has been around forever.

I dont like but this how it works

Its not used to "cause" an overshoot.

Folks use it to decelerate to keep from overshooting.

Typically in my experience a hi con goes to bounce. Normally I would start a slow turn and take tighter tempting him to follow.

Most folks pull trying to follow as I turn tighter they cant follow and will shoot by. Timed right I can roll back and hit as they blow by.

The eng chop trick involves the guy cutting his eng and decelerating and pullin gs. When he bleeds enough e he turns eng back on and accelerates through the turn.

Basically its like breaking before you get into the turn then accelerating through.

Probrably 90% of the time in the main you will never notice or it will never happen.

Sometimes they will toggle the eng on/off rapidly. All it does is slow them enough to turn tighter.

When I first saw this a long time ago it was g10s, 190s, jugs and f4us. Every once in a while the rare pony.

Planes that can already turn dont need to do this.

The only reason its a hot issue now is because of a thread in the KOTH forum.

Someone asked why there is a rule against shutting off your eng. This rule the way I took was to stop folks from uppin with lo fuel and nursing it by turning their eng off to out last the rest of the guys.

The original poster said he only cut eng in a fight.

Well a few of us offered our opinions. I feel that the instant button eng toggle is a gameplay concession in ah. That when folks are in a fight that turning eng on/off was an exploitation of a gameplay concesion.

From there we end up here with a crusade against "gamyness".

There are far more things that effect gameplay then some one turning their eng on/off.

Glasses · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2002, 06:31:05 PM »

Exactly! If the prop is windmilling the engine won't require the whole complicated starting sequence it needs on the ground it'll start inmidietly. THe cylinders are attached to the crankshaft and while the combustion process is halted the engine still has movement only a slight spark would make the whole combustion process start inmedietly only way I could think the engine might get damaged is if the engine is restarted at full throttle,that might indeed make the engine go kaput,but otherwise there's no reason while the prop is windmilling for a piston engine aircraft not to start other than faulty magnetos, spark plugs or of course battle engine damage.

Maverick · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2002, 11:55:12 PM »

I have had an inflight engine quit running in RL. It was on purpose as I needed to make a landing without the engine running. I didn't want the engine making power if the gear collapsed and I had an unsafe gear indicator. Guess what. the prop stayed turning until AFTER I turned off the runway. The prop will tend to stay turning if the plane is flying and not just falling. That's just the way it is. You don't need the starter. In fact you will have to take an unusual action to get the prop to stop without a major crunch in the engine. Think slowing to stall speed.

More than one pilot in WW2 forgot to switch tanks and had the big quiet happen. The engine fired right up after switching to a tank that had more than just air in it. Happens in general aviation too.

As to the technology for the 30's and 40's being less capable than now. Here's a real news flash. We are STILL flying the same technology in engines. It's called magnetos and aircooled engines with "generous" tollerances. Why the slop? The engines are made of multiple types of metal.

Grey cast iron- piston rings some are chromed in a non chrome cylinder

aluminum- engine cases cylinder heads and various accessories pistons, piston pin caps

steel - cylinder bores some are chromed, some are nitrided, some are iron, some are plain steel. This also includes other parts like the cams, crankshafts, valve tappets, lifters, valves, gears,and so on.

Now the big thing here is that these items do not expand or contract in a uniform manner. Some will react faster and farther than others so you must design some room for this to happen without siezing the engine.

Due to the FAA and liability concerns, the fastest evolving part of aviation is in the military and experimental aircraft arenas. For most of the rest of aviation the 30's and 40's are not far away. They are still here. I confirmed that by looking up a book on engine maintenance printed in 1939. The data in there is pretty much the same as my brand new 2000 textbook. There have been some modifications sure but it has not amounted to a substantive change.

Another thing to consisder is that ready aircraft had to keep engines somewhat warm but not running all the time. That meant starting and running periodically until the ready alert status was passed off to another plane / pilot or ended period.

Don't sweat the "malfunction" situation. People come to AH to fly and fight (or drive and fight) not to put up with "random failures". If the game didn't work for you, would you want to pay to sit on the ground or to play the game?

CavemanJ · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2002, 08:42:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Maverick

Don't sweat the "malfunction" situation. People come to AH to fly and fight (or drive and fight) not to put up with "random failures". If the game didn't work for you, would you want to pay to sit on the ground or to play the game?

Game the game playin with the E key and take yer chances on it restarting. Avoid the potential problem by not thumbin the E key after ya get off the ground. Plain and simple.

Oh, and Mav, you asked on another thread if people really do this... go as Wldthing. He uses it every time he engages.

Innominate · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2002, 10:39:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by CavemanJ

Game the game playin with the E key and take yer chances on it restarting. Avoid the potential problem by not thumbin the E key after ya get off the ground. Plain and simple.

If engine reliability is going to be taken into account, the the N1k2's engine needs to randomly die. And the me262 engines need to catch on fire randomly when being started. Plus every other plane that had any engine issues.