9/11 Opinions of todays youth

[Saurdaukar]

Hiya guys.  This is going to be a long post, Im sorry, but Im about as angry as Ive ever been.

Im in my last semester of college.  Obviously today in one of my classes, Middle East (Political Science major), we discussed the attacks.

During this discussion, I was appauled at some of the, as I saw it, "Anti-American" viewpoints.  

There was one individual in particular who came armed to the teeth with facts and figures and rhetoric claiming that we brought this upon ourselves.  

My problem here is not necessarily with this person, whose name I do not even know, but the fact that alot of the younger students seemed to agree with him.  

I find myself angered because it seems to me that the "educated youth" (college students) of today are simply stupid.  Somehow during the course of the last ten years, it has become fashionable to bash this country.  Education runs on course with the idea that America is "bad" and our foriegn policy is "bad" and so on...

My first question, mainly to those of you around my age (22), is "is my experience isolated, or are you all experiencing something like this?"

I found myself almost yelling during this class, citing various theories of imperialism and the benifits of exploitation (that was his major argument) as well as various differences in the military cultures involved.

Regardless of who is "right" and who is "wrong," what hurts me here is the fact that... not before, and not after the attacks, have we gained any REAL patriotism.  How can ANYONE POSSIBLY bash this country if they live in it!?!?

Percieved intelligence and TOTAL lack of experience breeds this stupidity and I encourage all of you to snuff this out.  I see this behavior as anti-nationalistic, and furthermore, an insult to those that lost their lives last September, servicemen of all types, and our government.

I have been arguing for years that this country has no nationalism or culture.  In a strange way, I believe that 9/11/01 helped to fix that.  People came together not as blacks, whites, chritians, jews, etc, but as AMERICANS!

Apparently, however, 4,000 lives lost, major symbols of American might destroyed, and our way of life changed was not enough for some people.  How anyone can STILL be bad-mouthing this country is beyond me.

No one loves this country anymore.

We have all become sublime... we take what we have for granted.  Hell, the attacks were all but forgotten 6 months later...

I suggest that this country take its place in the world.

The United States needs to do something about this threat to our soveriegnty NOW.

I say not argue about whether or not to go into Iraq... it should have been done a year ago.  And as long as were there, lets "cleanse" the rest of the nations who oppose us.  Dont bother with finding "evidence" of anti-American activity... anyone with half a brain knows who is behind this and who is not.  

This will happen again if measures are not taken swiftly.  The response to 9/11/01 SHOULD have been blindingly swift and devastaing.  These people need to be of the mindset that attacking America is insane... they knock over a few buildings?  Why dont we go bomb a few diddlying cities.  They bomb an embassy?  Lets march into the guilty country.

As long as we continue to popsicle-foot around playing world policeman and getting our bellybutton punctured, smiling the whole time, lets go play "You diddlyed me, now Im going to diddly you harder."

Sorry for my language... just watched a documentary on the attacks on CBS, very well done... well done enough for me to get fired up all over again.

I suppose Ill end the post as Im losing my direction... Ive got so many points Id like to make, but they span the spectrum of the events and the site doesnt have the bandwidth to support them all.  

My question above applies, are college students elsewhere experiencing this?  

If so, I encourage all of you to "educate" these people.  The only way you can be of the mindset that "We are wrong" is through sheer ignorance.

Disclaimer:  The writer makes no appologies for punctuation or spelling.

[Vulcan]

Saurdaukar, don't get me wrong, I hate those ragheads just as much as you.

But, getting away from the specific 9/11 attacks, you really need to get on the other side of the fence to get an honest view. The USA is essentially a good country, however, like any good capitilist country (and I am a capitilist) it likes to swing the odds in its favour when it can.

Now, I am all for nuking the ragheads responsible for 9/11, but you need to stand back and look at the cause and affect scenarios that happen when you do diddly around with other countries. And some of your classmates may have a better concept of this.

There are a lot of things that go on that you may not know about. For example, a simple non-warring example. Where I live, NZ, farming products are the core of our economy. We export a lot of dairy and meat products. Recently the USA placed trade restrictions on us, illegal restrictions according to the WTO. All it did effectively was raise meat prices in the USA for lamb, screw our farmers, and pay off US farmers who were actually unprofitable.

Now remember, at the same time the US shoves 'free trade' agreements down our throats and goes mental at any restrictions or duties we place on exports from the USA to us.

To NZ, this was a massive issue, was it reported in the USA? I doubt it. Did it piss off a lot of Kiwi's? Hell yes.

Just remember, you don't see both sides of the story most of the time. To a lot of people outside the USA, the country seems to be run by business's fronted by politicians, with a population ignorant of when the USA toejams on other countries.

Now in the above scenario Kiwis are a relaxed bunch. But piss of ragheads and they do crazy stuff, nothing will ever rationalise the 9/11 crap, but you need to tread carefully when there are people in this world that place such a low value on life like Bin Laden.

[Saurdaukar]

I understand what you are saying, and agree with you in some respects.  I dont have the international perspective that you do, however.

I will agree that the general population is uninformed (didnt know about any trade restrictions with you "buggers" in NZ)
and I find it interesting that the rest of the world has this view.

Capitalist we are, like most of the world.  In this case, we are trying to protect our own interests, just as any other country would.  I dont see the problem with this... at least I dont see it as a problem worthy of destroying building and killing people.  

I may be just another "dumb American" but I seem to be the only one who doesnt see the exploitation of other countries as bad...?

If we didnt exploit 3rd world countries we'd be, IMHO A. Stupid.  and B. Much worse off.  Imagine paying double, if not TRIPLE for something as trivial as items of clothing because they arent made in Mexico or China.  

The above works off of a very complex theory which I wont even attempt to explain here...

I guess my issue is not with whether or not the United State has flawed foriegn policy... but the fact that the citizens of this country wont stand behind it!

Its become fashionable today to squeak and moan about everything.  Before Bush voiced his desire to go into Iraq, the news headlines over here were all BLAMING the administration for LETTING THIS HAPPEN!  They said it could have been prevented, why didnt we know, etc, etc etc.

Now, when we try and go do something preemptive, the media turns around and puts the "Why do this?" spin on it...

Its all very frustrating and I wish I understood it better... but I still maintain that flawed or not, US foreign policy is in the best interests of its citizens.  We do what any other country would if they had the influence to pull it off.  Why isnt France supporting an invasion of Iraq?  Because Iraq owes France ALOT of money.  

If the regime is changed, France doesnt get paid.  Why isnt Russia 100% behind this?  Because Russia sells ALOT of weapons to Iraq... the list goes on...

Every country in the WORLD acts in their own interest... why is the United States the only nation made to give "reasons" for this behavior?

[Animal]

Did you listen and analized his viewpoints from an unbiased position? Very strong patriotism will make that very hard but it is posible. You know just as you may discard and hate everything he said because it seemed anti-american, maybe he was saying a lot of things that were true but you completly let by.

I'm not saying he was right, its not like I was listening to what he said, but something to consider.


The Unexamined life is not worth living

- Socrates


Ps.:

No one loves this country anymore.

We have all become sublime... we take what we have for granted. Hell, the attacks were all but forgotten 6 months later...

I dont know whats the problem with you but this is roadkill you are spewing. Attacks forgotten? I think we were all reminded of them EVERY SINGLE DAY since they happened.
Maybe thats why I'm unemotional about the aniversary. I'm already USED to 9/11, its gospel every single day.

Cool your head dude.

[Saurdaukar]

Oh, and I read my post again - I think I may have given the impression that "We are NOT at fault."  

Obviously this is not true...  we are "at fault" but we did not "bring this upon ourselves."

Hmm... that may not make sense... sorry its late... hmm.. how can I explain this better...

US foreign Policy may be flawed when viewed from outside the US, but it is necessary... and my beef comes from the fact that those students Im refering to look at the issue from outside the country and dont even think about the repercussions INSIDE the country if the policies are changed.

Take the farming issue with NZ... our farmers would be going bankrupt if not for that action.  Sure we pissed off some Kiwi farmers... but "tough toejam, its either us or them."  I say that our citizens spend too much time thinking of "them" and not enough thinking "us."

[Animal]

Obviously this is not true... we are "at fault" but we did not "bring this upon ourselves."

I understand what you are trying to say, and sorry, but you will not achieve a good discussion about it here.

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Animal

Ps.:

I dont know whats the problem with you but this is roadkill you are spewing. Attacks forgotten? I think we were all reminded of them EVERY SINGLE DAY since they happened.
Maybe thats why I'm unemotional about the aniversary. I'm already USED to 9/11, its gospel every single day.

 

Obviously a discussion without insults is out of the question, thanks a bunch...

YES they were forgotten... do you go outside of the house?

Sure we had flags flying for 6 months afterwards... but what happened after that?  The temporary patriotism left.  In early September, these feelings came back... but if there is one things Americans are good it, its forgetting.

How many flags did you see outside in July?  As many as last September?  No.

How many stickers to you see on cars today?  As many as last september?  No.

Everyone was yelling and screaming patriotism... but the enlistment lines were E M P T Y.

My argument is that we are not doing enough as a country to A.  Make sure this doesnt happen again, and B.  support the decisions of our own government.

If you think that the ebb and flow of "support" and "rememberance" over the past 12 months (just think of a "U" from Sep to Sep) is sufficient, then I think your idea of "enough" is anything but.  

The citizens of this country dont care ENOUGH... thats my argument.

In the future, refrain from telling me or anyone else that I am "spewing roadkill" and perhaps your words wont fall on defensive ears.  Ive never been insulted for being patriotic before... this is definately a first... perhaps you are of the variety I mention?

[Animal]

I'm not insulting you for being patriotic, far from it. In fact, I'm not insulting you, I'm saying what you said was BS, it doesnt necesesarily mean you are or everything else you say.

That said,

Flags and car decals are NOT a measure of patriotism.
People GOT OVER THE ATTACK 6 months after, YES. Americans are STRONG, their lives were not over because of the terrorist attack.

It took 6 whole months (that you noticed because of the flags) for people to recover and that is a lot.

Do you understand?

Oh and on enlistment lines, this is not WWII, and the ARMY is not the same. We dont need millions of soldiers to fight terrorism, we already have the professional ARMY we need.

The citizens of this country dont care ENOUGH... thats my argument.

Just so that I can try to understand your hidden argument, what would be caring enough to you?
What would people have to do for you to go "Ok they care"

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Animal

Just so that I can try to understand your hidden argument, what would be caring enough to you?
What would people have to do for you to go "Ok they care"
 

Stop criticizing our own actions and start criticizing the actions of those responsible for flying 767's into buildings.

We've lost sight of who actually did the flying, it seems.

Did you lose anyone you knew in New York or Washington?  Those of us who did are by no means "over it."

If you want an example of people who have forgotten (gotten "over it?"), check out some of the "minute of silence" threads in the O Club... all the evidence you need.

[Animal]

We have all become sublime... we take what we have for granted. Hell, the attacks were all but forgotten 6 months later...

If you want an example of people who have forgotten (gotten "over it?"), check out some of the "minute of silence" threads in the O Club... all the evidence you need.

I'm having a hard time understanding you. You are contradicting yourself.

First you tell me people forgot about it 6 months after, and now you are pointing me to people who never got over ir including our own bbs  
In short, you are throwing my own arguement back at me like I was the one who made the first post?

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar

Take the farming issue with NZ... our farmers would be going bankrupt if not for that action.  Sure we pissed off some Kiwi farmers... but "tough toejam, its either us or them."  I say that our citizens spend too much time thinking of "them" and not enough thinking "us."

Are you refering to the Great Kiwi Glut where our farmers dumped so many kiwis on the New Zealand populace we forced the NZ kiwi farmers out of business? After we bankrupt all the kiwi farmers by dumping kiwis on the New Zealand market the price of kiwis increased tenfold. Now most New Zealanders can no longer afford to eat kiwis, and not since the Irish Potato Famine have we seen such starvation among one of Queen Mother's colonies. Of sourse the Reagan administration hushed this up. I'm surprised they're teaching this now.

Saur, don't worry bout what you're learning in college because the Republicans have shipped all our jobs overseas. All that's left is service jobs, and those will only be available until they figure out how to ship a pizza from Tijuana to Portland in twenty minutes or less- then even those jobs will be gone. You're brighter than these guys just because you don't cave to peer pressure, so and if there's any justice left in the job market you'll be the guy sitting at the drive through booth while your classmates will be cookin da fries and flippin da burgers. Stick to your guns, question authority- even the college professors.

[GRUNHERZ]

Im a college student aroud your age as well and have heard the exact same thing from degenerate idiots at my school also.  Its funny because so much of what they say is verbatim rehashing of traditional cold war anti-US communist and socialist propaganda cominbined with the fashionable late 1990s hatred of Western civilization.  With the fall of communism in the early 1990s these degenerates can no longer criticize the USA from a direct cold war perspective so they have shifted to attacks on Western culture in general with a specific focus on US global capitalsm.

The ironic thing about this is that most of these left wing USA degenerates, at least the vast majority I have come in contact with, are pretty much rich or midle class brats of succesful proffesional parents. In other words they take the US lifestyle for granted and have no idea of what is involved in maintainig it. They assume it is possible to live such comfortable lives under any systtem, but only that that the USA is somehow in the way. So they attack the USA, of course I suppose they are obliviouis to the fact that our country is one of the few who wouldnt imprison or shoot them on sight for such traiterous thoughts. ( Although we should).  Anyway they find it easy and harmless to spew such filth from the safety of their parents bank accounts and  comfort of air conditioned politcally correct classrooms.

For example the degenerate Marxists at UC Berkeley given the task of planning a 911 tribute wanted to exclude any reference to the red/white/blue of the American flag as doing so, they thought, would be intollerant and insensitive to non americans. In turn they proposed to hand out white ribbons. I guess they only wanted to spare the feelings of degenerate anti-american zealots like themselves and cared little for anyonle else. If they PC roadkill examined their choce of a white ribbon as carefully as they examined the US flag they could have noticed that the Taliban flag was a pure white backround with small green islamic script. Couldnt they imagine somebody would be offended by taliban colors, especially after 911. Nope, only the USA is evil to these degenerates.

Now Animal I have to AGREE wirh your contention that we must look at the statements of these degenerate traitors in an objective manner.  And any objective analysis of their hateful propaganda   will show them to be degenerates.  They desrerve the same type of analiysis as hate groups and terrorists. These young people are either stupid and ignorant sounding boards of established socialist/communist left wing USA hating agitators, or they are new breed of dementedd youth culture. A sort of by-product of the virulently anti-US hateful scholastic culture that hes developed over the past decade. What can you say when the scholastic presentation of a figure such as George Washington has turned from US hero, when I began school in the USA in 1989,  to becoming some sort of evil opressor in one US history class I took in 2000.  What else can these children learn to think of the USA when incresingly fed this garbage daily over the past decade.

The other crucial element in this is the idea that a US culture does not exist at all- in fact that americans dont exist as a people. I recently had discussions with a school friend of mine that illustrate this perfectly. He had lived in the USA most of his life, spoke english, ate all type of US food, watched US movies and participated like everyone else in all facets of US life. Yet he did not consider himself an american, he only saw himself as chinese.   A whole generation has grown up in an atmosphere that facilitates this line of thinking. Again I have seen this directly in my schooling. In 1989 America was described to me as a "melting pot" by around 1996 in High School it had become a "salad bowl". I suppose over the next few years it was slated to become a "hors de'ouvres platter" then perhaps a seven course meal...  Very sad to have witnesses this myself, but also very fortunate to be aware of this transformation.

So this is basically the origin of our degenerate youth these days. There is more but I'm fresh out of energy responding to it so I will conclude.

[Thrawn]

Saurdaukar,  I read the thread from the top down, and when I first saw this:
 
 "There was one individual in particular who came armed to the teeth with facts and figures and rhetoric claiming that we brought this upon ourselves. ".

I also wondered how well you argued against his facts and figures.

I have argued with people and not necessary like what they are saying.  But if they could defend it then I had to give ground.  I'm not saying he was right.  What I'm trying to say is try to argue your points and listen to arguements from a place of logic, not from passion.

I'm not trying to sound conceited, I'm just a beginner when it comes to logic and critical thought.

I've been reading this site, provided by Toad.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index
 
 

[Leslie]

Saur, what do you expect from a university PS class?  You didn't say what university you're attending.  If the prevailing student body is more liberal than conservative, then the "blame game" will get more voice, imo.  Some college professors in particular, are responsible for much of this attitude...probably trying to make up for their own failings in the real world.  What's better than a captive audience?

The academic world is very difficult to survive in for the professors.  I believe in many instances, they espouse opinions they think will be met with agreement from the other profs in the dept.  Unofficially, decisions concerning tenure, the holy grail of professorship, must be unanimous by everyone in the dept.  The safest way to be, is to wet a finger and hold it to the prevailing winds.  This is called conforming.

It's my opinion, some of the most outspoken of the students, are interested in becoming professors themselves one day, so they say what their mentor wants to hear.  The entire process is a vicious circle of "psychobabble", where no one has the guts, or experience to raise their hand and say to a professor or speaker, "Please explain what you just said in layman's terms."  

Instead of that, the babble is met with applause, and the questions are asked later,  "What was the prof/speaker talking about?"

I admire you Saur, for standing up to the anti-American arguments in class.  I am curious.  Are there any non-traditional students in your class...say 35 years old and above?  If so, what input do they contribute, and do they usually agree with the status quo, or do they call professors to task on what is said in class?  In my experience, the older non-trads always do this.  And usually, the prof moves on to another subject.

You should consider becoming a college professor Saur.  It would be a service to the community, and a refreshing departure from the status quo.  Good luck mate.  

Les:)

[Vulcan]

Now this is exactly what I am talking about - sort of. Take two examples:

The first the lamb issue. US farmers are uncompetitive and unprofiitable. NZ Farmers are competitive, effecient, and profitable. The US puts heavy tarrifs on imported lamb. Who pays those tarrifs - the kiwi farmers? No, the US consumer. The NZ farmers then take their business elsewhere, NZ consumbers also benefit by cheaper meat on the market. So who lost out? Well, the NZ farmers did a little, but the big losers here are the US consumers. You are essentially propping up an industry that cannot sustain itself - which, btw, is socialism  . Should times get lean this industry will fall over big time, and you will have to rely on imported heavily tarriffed (and expensive meats). Tough toejam applies to the US consumer.

Second example. NZ went through many reforms in the 80's and 90's. Including lifting tarriffs on a huge amount of imported goods. Basically the goverment said if the internal business could not compete with imports then they were in the wrong business. This included cars, assembly plants for cars closed down in quick succession. There was a brief period of pain for some, but we recovered quickly. But then we started landing cheaper vehicles, suddenly the consumer had a vast amount of high quality feature rich cars to chose from. Whereas before we had been kneecapped by local assemblers relying on import tarriffs to protect their inefficient businesses. Thats capitilism.

See the difference?

Sometimes the US is extremely short sighted, sometimes you allow yourselves to be driven by polical lust which in turn is driven by short sighted businessmen. Over here we call it navel gazing.

Take GW's current push on war with Iraq. I hate the diddlyer Saddam. I'd love to see his arse smeared over the desert. But right now a war with Iraq would make 9/11 style attacks a daily occurance. Saddam is just itching for another reason to set all the fundamentilists off.

I think the real point is there are people behind the power in the US making the wrong decisions and selling them to the public. All politicians are general buttwipes, but yours seem to be buttwipes owned by business (whereas ours are just total tards Bent Spoon Award  ).

p.s. Elf, wtf are you on about, first we don't eat kiwi's, they are a pprotected species, second we don't farm them - it'd be... uhhh impossible?

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
US foreign Policy may be flawed when viewed from outside the US, but it is necessary... and my beef comes from the fact that those students Im refering to look at the issue from outside the country and dont even think about the repercussions INSIDE the country if the policies are changed.

Take the farming issue with NZ... our farmers would be going bankrupt if not for that action.  Sure we pissed off some Kiwi farmers... but "tough toejam, its either us or them."  I say that our citizens spend too much time thinking of "them" and not enough thinking "us."