Author Topic: Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?  (Read 539 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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After reading this story, I guess not! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2260922.stm

Quote
Prize-winning French novelist Michel
               Houellebecq is to stand trial on Tuesday on
               charges of making a racial insult and inciting
               religious hatred.

               The controversial writer is being sued by four
               Islamic organisations in Paris after making
               "insulting" remarks about the religion in an
               interview about his latest book.

Offline Obear1971

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2002, 03:32:16 PM »
YEh weird that isnt it, he gets busted whilst islamic extreamists can set up a recruitment stall in the local high street to get people to go and fight for the Taliban during the Afgan conflict earlyer this year.

AND NO ONE CAN SAY A THING and the police do nothing

makes me bloody sick.

Offline straffo

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2002, 04:05:38 PM »
1st question : No

You can't hide yourself behind an amendement here

If you promote nazism (for exemple) you gonna pay fast :)


2nd Question

Houellebecq has used it as a way to have his name in the Newspapper ... advertisement you now ...


3 and last yes he is an bellybutton hole as he has give fuel to the extremist muslim in France ....


and lastly our legal system is completly different so the outcome is not predictable here
so this sentence
Quote
He faces a year in jail or a 52,000 € (£33,000) fine if he loses the case.

is likely to be false and even if condamned I would be very surprise if he had to pay more than 1 (ONE) €

Offline straffo

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2002, 04:06:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Obear1971
YEh weird that isnt it, he gets busted whilst islamic extreamists can set up a recruitment stall in the local high street to get people to go and fight for the Taliban during the Afgan conflict earlyer this year.

AND NO ONE CAN SAY A THING and the police do nothing

makes me bloody sick.


you are confusing with England ...

Offline senna

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2002, 04:13:49 PM »
There are tons of Nazis hiding on this BBS.

:D

Offline VAQ

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2002, 05:29:36 PM »
I have been reading these boards at least twice a day for almost two years.  I have said little.  I do hope I am not shooting myself in the foot-

Censorship (prior restraint) has never been constitutional- although post factum punishment for the distribution of morally and ethically objectionable material always has been.  

There have always been limits to freedom of speech.  Censorship and self-censorship have always been a part of the process of free speech.  Censorship is never absolute; the limits of censorship expand and contract in response to current definitions of morality.  The government places restrictions on freedoms necessary to protect the rights of others, and to protect the national security, public order, and public health.

The greatest poets and philosophers throughout history have advocated limitations to freedom of speech.  In ancient Athens, the very seat of democracy, verbal and written opinions were subject to censorship.  The Athenian democracy sentenced the philosopher Socrates to death for subversive speech.  Plato, a student of Socrates who witnessed the philosopher’s death, supported limitations to the freedom of speech.  “The poet shall compose nothing contrary to the ideas of the lawful, or just, or beautiful, or good, which are allowed in the state,” Plato wrote in Book II of The Republic.  “Neither shall he be permitted to show his compositions to any private individual, until he shall have shown them to the appointed censors and guardians of the law, and they are satisfied with them.”  It is the loss of political freedom that leads to a loss of artistic and literary freedom.

In 1644, two thousand years after the death of Plato, the English poet John Milton wrote the Areopagitica, an ardent plea for freedom of speech.  In the Areopagitica, delivered to the English Parliament in 1644, Milton wrote: “Give me the liberty to know, to utter and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.”  Freedom of speech was a part of John Milton’s philosophy.  Paradoxically, Milton’s philosophy of freedom of speech, when made specific, embraced only those people who shared the same values and ideas.  John Milton, considered the greatest English poet since Shakespeare, became Oliver Cromwell’s official censor in 1649.  As the official censor of the Lord Protector of England, John Milton was able to impose a narrowly defined, personal interpretation of morality on the English people.

The influence of Milton’s Areopagitica through the centuries, notably in early American and French political systems, has been considerable.  Although censorship has never been constitutional, censorship has long coexisted with human rights in the United States and France.  The Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights in America, and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in France guarantees the quality of life, and reflects Milton’s doctrine of no prior restraint.  The two declarations became the models for most declarations of political and civil rights adopted by European states in the 19th century.

One might argue that human rights, such as the right of free speech, are basic freedoms, and fall beyond the scope of regulation by the state, regardless of the enactment of law.  History suggests otherwise.  In World War I the United States passed the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 into law, designed to censor pro-German publications.  In 1959, the government of Charles de Gaulle in France adopted a new article to the French Constitution that made censorship legal.

Advocates of complete freedom of speech often suggest that restrictions to freedom of speech have a tendency to spread beyond the limits that defined the original restrictions.  Clarence Page, columnist for the Chicago Tribune, states in the essay Censoring Obscene Music Is Not Justified: “Once we begin to exempt from First Amendment protections words and ideas that offend some of us, the list of exceptions that affects all of us only grows longer.  It does not shrink.”  I suggest that this statement is not true.  Due to the inevitability of change, the moral values of society change from one generation to the next.  In 1989, the United States Supreme Court declared unconstitutional a Texas law against flag desecration, removing one item from Mr. Page’s list of exceptions.  The Supreme Court ruled that flag desecration is a form of non-verbal, symbolic speech.  The list of exceptions expands and contracts in response to current definitions of morality.

Society delegates the power of government to “elected” officials.  The government places restrictions on freedom necessary to protect the rights of others, and to protect the national security, public order, and public health.  The “elected” officials in a fully democratic society directly reflect the known and ascertained values of the proletariat, values that are often subaltern to personal judgment.  In a republic, elected officials rely on personal judgment to determine the needs and interests of the republic.  One might say that most governments are a synthesis of the democratic and republican forms.  In the United States, the proletariat selects congressional representatives by democratic method.  Congressional representatives compose, submit, and pass legislature into law by republican method.  Author Rod Davis asserts this premise in his essay Speech Should Be Limited,

“If free speech means anything, it can only refer to the expression of a hazy range of interpretations within the ideological parameters of an enforcing power.  The “free speech” of the dominant class will never be the free speech of the oppressed and exploited, and saying so in the face of historical experience is dissembling…  Constitutional “free speech” in the daily, concrete world, consists of what the government decides it to be.”

Freedom of speech is a universal right, a fundamental right indivisible from other human rights necessary for the enjoyment and protection of other rights.  Universal, fundamental, and indivisible, freedom of speech is not, however, an absolute right.  The freedom of speech is now and has always been subject to restrictions in certain narrowly defined circumstances (just try shouting FIRE!!! in a crowded movie theater).  Freedom of opinion is absolute (best embodied by Voltaire’s famous statement “I disapprove of what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it.”); freedom of speech carries special duties and responsibilities.  Advocates of complete freedom of speech abrogate responsibility for the content and impact of speech as well, a claim of privilege without social responsibility.  A utopian society, composed of individuals who enjoy complete freedom of speech without attendant social responsibility, is not a society al all.  It is anarchy.

Of course this is simply my opinion.  I had more but my fingers are getting tired.

Offline ra

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2002, 06:06:52 PM »
<<<3 and last yes he is an bellybutton hole as he has give fuel to the extremist muslim in France ....>>>

Does this statement bother anyone but me?

Offline loser

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2002, 06:08:42 PM »
perhaps i can add to what VAQ has stated.  While i dont claim to speak for this fine gentleman, i do feel that perhaps we have the same view on this topic.

i will refer the membes of this bbs to the following:


"One kind of speech which many people think is appropriate for the government to control is hate literature (also known as "hate propaganda").  Canada has a law (section 319 of the Criminal Code) which forbids hate propaganda.

One of the first serious legal tests od this legislation in court was in the case of R. vs. Keegstra, which went to the Supreme Court of Canada in 1990.

Keegstra had been a teacher who had taught his classes that the Holocaust did not occur, and that there was a world-wide Jewish conspiracy.  The issue before the court was whether a law limiting the ability to put forward hate propaganda infringes on the right to freedom of expression (section 2 (b) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms), and if so, whether suck a limitation can nevertheless be "demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society" (as required by section 1 of the Charter.)"

I think most nations and governments have to deal with this issue.

My personal belief is that you can say what you want, and like Vaq stated, think what you want, but you ARE responsible for publicy making statements of racial or religious issues.

Essentially a balance must be struck.  Free speech must be protected, but so must the rights of individual people and groups of people that hold a certain set of beliefs.

If you want to think that "X" race that follows "X" religion are bad people and should be dealt with in the most extreme manner, that is fine with me.

But when individuals go public with this sort of intolerance and hate, i develop a problem with them.

My fingers also go tired....

but in summary:  "not all people are entitled to their opinions"

Offline john9001

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2002, 06:51:17 PM »
"""just try shouting FIRE!!! in a crowded movie theater)."""""


but , but , but ...what if the theater IS on fire????

Offline VAQ

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2002, 06:57:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
"""just try shouting FIRE!!! in a crowded movie theater)."""""


but , but , but ...what if the theater IS on fire????


I should have written "such as the false report of fire in a crowded movie theater." Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2002, 07:01:24 PM »
Is this sort of thing is what the French were keeping themselves busy with in the summer of 1940? :D

Offline Daff

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2002, 07:02:58 PM »
You do have freedom of speech in France, although you might not be aware of it :). AFAIK, France has adopted the European Convention of Human Rights, as has most of the EU,which guarantees your right to free speech.

Daff

Offline whgates3

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2002, 12:27:00 AM »
freedom of speech does not mean that one cannot be held accountable for what one says.  otherwise fraud would be legal, which it is not, unless you have several hundred grand to give to politicians. in that case it is not free

Offline Elfenwolf

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2002, 12:51:56 AM »
France does not recognize freedom of speech the way the civilized world does- however, they recognize the right to litter, date 12 year olds, treat tourists rudely, never bathe and surrender should Germany even sneeze in their direction.

VAQ, FWIW that was very well written and informative. Thanks for the history lesson and <>.

Offline straffo

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Does France have a "Freedom of Speech" amendment similiar to the U.S.A?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2002, 01:24:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Daff
You do have freedom of speech in France, although you might not be aware of it :). AFAIK, France has adopted the European Convention of Human Rights, as has most of the EU,which guarantees your right to free speech.

Daff


yep ... in fact what I wanted to point is that you can't say "Hey I can say whatever I want : see the 1st ammendement"

you can say what you want but you'll keep your responsibilty


@GRUN : I fart in your general direction ;)