Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??

[Kweassa]

The worst part of this is that there is no way for the accused person to find out if the accusations are true. 190 pilots will have to risk facing this accusation every time they try any sort of scissors, and so will 109 pilots. I'm not saying this is any sort of conspiracy against the LW, just that those two planes are most commonly accused of.

 There could be truly "innocent perpetrators", there could be "guilty dweebs", and there could be "wrongfully accused".

 There was this one case I was facing a P-51D behind me in a 190D-9 where I was accused of being a "stick stirrer". Basically, all I did was do a scissors in a figure-8 fashion which I call  "falling leaf".. to minimize E-loss and to give a unpredictable flight path.

 All through this maneuver I was watching the P-51 behind me, and my stick inputs basically aimed to match the attacker's movement. He wants a guns solution, I roll out of the way, 180 degrees opposite to the angle of his wings. He rolls for me again, I continue the roll, change flight path, and get out of the way again. How fast these rolls come out is totally defined by the fashion the attacker pursues me, and finally I got him to overshoot.

 The next message I get is "nice stick stirring."

 ..

 Now in this case, it is possible that I could be an "innocent perpetrator". Either that or I'm "wrongfully accused", because I sure as hell wasn't a "guilty dweeb". I tried explain to him I wasn't "stirring" my stick in anyway, and basically all I did was a "figure-8 roll". He keeps insisting that is the proof of stick-stirring, "moving stick into figure 8 - stick stirring", when in truth the figure-8 rolls come out with just two stick inputs - left and right.

 Whatever it was, it denied him aim and made him overshoot. So, am I doing the micro-warps? Or is the attacker being an arse? I have no idea.  I suggested he film me if he sees me doing it again and send it to me, because I really have no way of knowing if what he accused is true or not - and that sucks!

[palef]

O for Cod's sake.

If you don't stay still for some hero to shoot you down, you're cheating.

Good call.

This thread is pretty damn close to a Channel 1 fishing trip IMO.

palef

[AvidMC]

Jesh!!!! Look what I started. Okay, as for a rolling scissor, or figure 8, I have seen that maneuver, I have been killed by that maneuver and I have killed guys using that maneuver. It is one of the few maneuvers that an aircraft with a solid roll rate can use against a turn fighter.  It is completely different from the floppy fish game. As it was stated in an earlier post in a rolling scissor the aircraft will continue to fly in the same position that the nose is pointing. With the ole fish game the aircraft is all over the place in attitudes that are just unnatural. Now maybe this is a lag issue and I will accept that as a possible solution. But sure as hell ain't a scissor.

Avid aka Mackerel hunter

[Puck]

Originally posted by Kweassa

Basically, all I did was do a scissors in a figure-8 fashion which I call  "falling leaf".. to minimize E-loss and to give a unpredictable flight path.

 

I do the same thing, though I'll mix that in with the more conventional reversals in a sissors, just so the dweeb behind me won't know (for sure) what my next reversal will be.

I keep channel one squelched, so I don't know if anyone has called me a stick stirrer, and frankly I don't give a crap.  I've never intentionally induced warp or lag or anything else, other than a spoiled guns solution on the nincompoop behind me, and if they want to think otherwise that's a pity but there's nothing I can do about it.  

[JB73]

<-- was called a stick stirrer once... dont even truly know what that is lol

im almost always ina 190-d9 and my roll rate is the only thing i have to keep me alive against the spits and la7's. when im low and slow i wish i knew the stuff kewassa knows.. (ive chased him and he's done these things)

back to topic... ive found that if i got inverted and use rudder to point my nose then roll out of it to head that direction i can evade some lesser guns. of course there is more to manuevering.. all im trying to do is stay alive till somone can clear my 6.

as far as ACM's go i know very little of actual termonology and how it corresponds to what im doing. also im not sure what you all are talking about as far as the " what a RL pilot could handle"

i thought the flight model here was supposed to be quite good... blakouts / redouts / stalls and such.

also wouldnt a stick stirrer get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message?

anyway thats my thoughts

[Mino]

The roll warp, or flip-flop warp is inherent to the game.  

Some will use it as feature, others use un-knowingly to prevent getting shot down.

Get over it....

[J_A_B]

My thought on the "fish flop" is as follows:

Guys do perfectly legit evasives...

that unfortunately the Internet can't keep up with very well....

so on the attacker's FE the perfectly legit evasives are turned into "fish flops".

In the "fish flop" the plane still "flops" in a semi-predictable flight path, which is why I suspect it's nothing more than an Internet-perverted evasive maneuver.   True "stick stirring" results in a plane randomly warping all over the place, and hasn't been very evident in AH since the "dont move your controls so rapidly" feature was added.  I only see the effects of "Stick stirring" when one of the individual connections is suspect, rather then the general netlag that IMO causes the "fish flop".

J_A_B

[fullback]

I think I got it now...

You saddle up to some silly, slick, stick-stirring sop, who ceases to stop stirring his stupid stick and slip-slide his sorry, self-centered, stinkin' six into your sight center.

[Duedel]

Keep still u bloody dweeb so i can shoot u down!

When I'm in a 190 and i have someone at my six I'll do whatever I can do to not get killed! This involves very little scissors, yaws, rolling scissors and so on. This doesnt mean that I'm stick stirring cause all moves will be smooth to hold my E state. For the bogey at my 6 this surely cthis ould look like a floppy fish but thats OK for me CAUSE THIS IS A GAME AND NOT RL!

If u encounter a bogey who's micro warping like hell (this doesnt mean its intentional) grab alt and get E and kill him in a few passes or simply disengage.

BTW There is nothing more childish than posting someones name at the BB cause he does strange funny things.

[rv6]

Originally posted by JB73
<-- .. also im not sure what you all are talking about as far as the " what a RL pilot could handle"

i thought the flight model here was supposed to be quite good... blakouts / redouts / stalls and such.

also wouldnt a stick stirrer get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message?

An answer, and a question re: the above.

In fast moving fighter-type planes (ie: a pair of Marchetti-SF250's, aka: RL Pilots), playing laser-tag.. you sure can do a "stick stir" with no ugly side effects other than mega-disorientation, if you are the stirrer (being shot at).

Only prolonged hard G will put you under & out..

If you're the stirree (doing the shooting), those little rapid stick movements, when viewed from the rear at about 150 yards is almost imperceptable.. and certainly presents no defensive challenge, as the plane continues straight ahead.  You (the stirree) simply press the trigger & saturate the area (straight ahead).  End of fight.

A question in Virtual stick-stirring?
I'd never heard of it before reading herein.  Tried it last night while alone over the ocean, and in a 45 degree dive.  A message came on screen  "Do not move your stick so abruptly!"  (or sumptin' like that).  Then,, the sticks' control seemed to be nill!!  I augered.

Ergo, when you jiggle the stick so much that the message appears,, is this an inherant "limiter" to keep you from doing it more?  I sure didn't hit compressability during that dive.. ? Hmm?

Thanks,

RV6 ~

[Vermillion]

The sensitivity of the anti-stick stirring routine was turned down after numerous complaints from people with crappy quality joysticks that spiked all the time, and got the message.

So no, the routine does not work as effectively as it use to (or in my opinon as it was originally designed too do) to stop this trash.

[Steve]

I remember that night!  I was behind the pony who over shot you.  I managed to shoot ya down, but only after getting a lucky guess on where you'd dodge to next..spectacular evasives! The pony that over shot you was swearing you stirred your stick..I just saw some jinkin with a twist..but you added some negative G stuff that really threw me off so maybe that is what he thought was stick stirrin.  In fact, I assumed the guy knew what he was talkin about until a couple grey beards nicely cleared things up for me...unfortunately your accuser didn't want to hear it.  I have seen the strange (plane is not flying in the direction its nose is pointing) thing.  Sage players in the game inform me that this is most often connect related.  Anyway, in hindsight, that night I saw a veteran pilot schooling a couple kids in the art of evasives.  Nice job.  

Steve

[Kweassa]

Steve, please do tell him I have no hard feelings.

 I know how competitive flight sim gamers can be, and I've traded word-punches even with you! But to parody a certain movie line; "What happend on that day, stays on that day."

 I bear no grudge against any verbal competitions I face lest it be something purely unforgivable such as racial remarks and etc. As I wrote in my previous post, while I feel what I did was totally legit, I do admit I can't be quite so sure on what he saw me doing on his FE , and that disturbs me.

 I hope he understands that I posted the instance as an explanation on these general affairs, not in anyway to counter-accuse or criticize his comment.

[T0J0]

I latched on to the Six of what I think was the Fish Flop manuever...LOL
 Pretty impressive manuever indeed... There seems to be a point that the plane always comes back too...You should see it after a few flops...Aim at the central point and the fish will hit your bullet stream... Unless you are short on ammo...Be patient... I had never seen anyone do it until the other day or wasn't looking for it until after I read the post... At first I didn't know how to deal with it... But after wasteing what little ammo I had, was down to a couple of squeezes... Got the Tard...
  Still prefer the flish flop over the HO....

T0J0

[Reschke]

Avid you did the right thing by pulling off and not overshooting the target. Next time though just re-engage and kill him later.

Just remember that sometimes these "fluid" evasion manuevers get garbled by the traffic passing over the internet and don't always translate into what they are supposed to be on someone else's Front End of the game.

Peace!