Author Topic: How About a "FRIENDLY ICONS ONLY" Event? (Read 738 times)

MRPLUTO · « **on:** September 17, 2002, 12:05:20 PM »

Last week I saw a post by ?

? suggesting a multi-frame scenario in which you only got one life for the entire scenario instead of each frame. There would be added realism, because if you bailed and were captured, you were out for good, but if you bailed over friendly territory you were only out for the remainder of that frame. Same if you ditched in friendly territory.

Great idea

, but........

someone from AH pointed out that after frame #1 you'd only have about half the starting pilots left alive:(

So, what if it were a "FRIENDLY ICONS ONLY" event?

I've heard of one squad that used to practice this way together and it just takes some practice. But no matter how much you practice...

the numbers of kills is bound to go way down. Survival rates go way up.

If the event put a premium on survival, I think the experience would be very realistic. I've read too many accounts from WW2 air battles that could never happen in AH because each enemy plane is identified with a neon sign.

The biggest problems would seem to be:

1. Do pilots have enough screen size & resolution to make this possible?

2. Would pilots be content with flying missions with fewer kills? Kills would become a lot more special.

3. Will pilots learn not to fly so suicidally? Running away and not engaging is sometimes the wise course of action.

4. Will pilots learn to land their planes? If 5 or 10% of your airforce can be expected to kill themselves landing, then all of this "realism" is pointless.

I can't answer any of these questions, but I expect your comments to do that. I do have a suggestion to solve this problem, though:

5. Inability to identify enemy aircraft type at d2.0 -- d3.0, whereas in real life it would be quite easy.

***Select each countries' aircraft based on its coloring, as well as any historical (or non-historical) match up.***

For example:

Allies: P-40E ( brown and green) and F6F-5 (dark blue)

Japanese: A6M5 (green ) and Ki-61 (white with a red tail)

As soon as pilots can see the coloring of an enemy fighter they will also know its type.

******

Someone will probably suggest, "Why not add friendly collisions, too, if you want realism?" And I'd say sure...as soon as warping is a thing of the past.

By the way, once in a WarBirds event we were told friendly collisions were on. I was flying in a formation of about 12 B-24's and man were we careful. It was incredibly stressful. At one point, I almost cut the tail off another 24. Then, just before we got back to base, they told us, "Only kidding about the friendly collisions!"

******

I'd be glad to help with a "FRIENDLY ICONS ONLY" event if enough people are interested.

MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33

Innominate · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2002, 04:37:28 PM »

Fighting without enemy icons isnt really that tough, it just means you need to get close to tell what you're fighting.

A no-enemy icons scenario would be fun I think.

oboe · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2002, 07:53:10 PM »

Karnak · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2002, 08:11:34 PM »

1. Do pilots have enough screen size & resolution to make this possible?

No, not even remotely close.

2. Would pilots be content with flying missions with fewer kills? Kills would become a lot more special.

I don't see why not.

3. Will pilots learn not to fly so suicidally? Running away and not engaging is sometimes the wise course of action.

Our lives aren't really on the line and we don't have missions that really matter. Nothing can be done to make people fly like they did in WWII.

4. Will pilots learn to land their planes? If 5 or 10% of your airforce can be expected to kill themselves landing, then all of this "realism" is pointless.

I don't see why not.

Mr. Blonde · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2002, 08:51:49 PM »

What about that night time lancastor intercepts, no icons, no dar just a flock of 190's being vectored in by the all seeing eye (Axis CO). That was shortly after they intro'd the lanc, I shot one down and collieded with another somewhat short lived scenario but man did I have fun.

Miska · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2002, 10:01:27 PM »

Please! Bring it on. I fly with icons off when alone, and with friendly icons only with my squadron. Sometimes when it gets too dark I turn on full icons, and it feels very strange now. I'll never go back to full icons. Try it and see. The fights are MUCH better.

And I agree that if we had friendly icons only, casualty rates and numbers of kills would be much closer to historical values. IMO, all historical events should be friendly icons only. Why not have one and see?

thrila · « **Reply #6 on:** September 17, 2002, 10:03:21 PM »

nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fancy · « **Reply #7 on:** September 17, 2002, 10:08:48 PM »

I'm actually in the habit of flipping enemy icons off after I engage because I already know what the plane is and that big bright icon next to the little black dot sort of makes it (the black dot) difficult to see.

Nefarious · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2002, 12:00:33 AM »

I would like to state once again...

If the event is Friendly icons only...

The bad guys would have no icons. Making it easy to distinguish friend from foe.

Wotan · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2002, 12:52:52 AM »

theres no setting in ah that allows the cms to set no icons for everyone.

No icons arent realistic but niether are range finders. Get rid of range data and make icons (friendly and enemy) a nuetral color and have the color fade in as you get closer (d1k). The icon should only have generic plane tags.

Friendly tags would need a way to id the name of the pilot perhaps when they get in close the plane id converts to name id.

Nefarious is correct that friendly and nme icons should be set to the same.

It makes no sense in having giving one side icons and having the other side not have them. You can easily tell who the bad guy is.

For the main Arena the icons are fine.

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2002, 05:41:29 PM »

Wotan

I agree with what you say, except:

"It makes no sense in giving one side icons and having the other side not have them. You can easily tell who the bad guy is."

You're right, except the purpose is to make it harder to notice the enemy and to make it easier to run away. Not to conceal if it's a bad guy or not.

******

Kanak

Thanks for your to-the-point replies. Except for question #1, your answers were encouraging. As for #3, I know that nothing will make people fly as carefully as they did in WW2. The question is, "How much less suicidally can AH pilots learn to fly in events?"

******

Miska

I agree: let's have a friendly icons only historical event and see what happens.

MRPLUTO

Karnak · « **Reply #11 on:** September 18, 2002, 07:37:40 PM »

MRPLUTO,

You misunderstand. It is all too easy to make people fly way, WAY more carefully in a game than they did in WWII. In WWII you had a cause you were fighting for, and orders you had to accomplish. If the death penalty is too high in a game people all become alt monkeys and nobody attempts to complete their mission. In real;ity that kind of behavior would get you court martialed, but in a game there is no fix for it.

It is also very easy to get people to fly way, WAY more dangerously in a game than they did in WWII. Just look at the MA for that example.

10Bears · « **Reply #12 on:** September 18, 2002, 08:59:47 PM »

I don’t believe the CMs can turn off nme icons all the way. This might be changed in the future.

Agreed. I wish they would do at least one event with friendly collisions on we’ve never tried that. The guys that do the radar vectors could double as air traffic controllers. without ATCs you’d have to call out when you wanted to launch or land. I think it’d be pretty cool

MRPLUTO · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2002, 07:50:18 AM »

Karnak,

In my aircombat event experience, the most unrealistic behavior has been engaging or attacking under exceedingly unfavorable conditions. These kinds of attacks lead to the high casualty rates in these scenarios. Having enemy icons makes these attacks even more suicdal, since it makes it much harder to disengage.

For example, in a recent BoB frame, our squadron of Hurricanes returned to base, only to find 5 Bf-109s milling about on the deck near our field. What were they thinking? Probably: "Let's see if we can pick off straglers as they come in one at a time." With our alt and speed advantage, we shot them all down with one or no losses, I can't remember. In the BoB, no LW commander would ever have tried such tactics.

I can give many more examples, but I'm sure all of us can.

******

With no enemy icons, it will be easier to avoid detection by alt monkeys, and easier to hide/run from them if engaged.

I'm really not worried about people not attempting to complete their mission. The people who fly this sim want action; it would probably cause howls of protest if a group of buffs were ordered to drop their bombs and come home because of heavy fighter opposition ahead. They'd want to give it a go, even if they were outnumbered 5 to 1.

******

The more I think about a "FRIENDLY ICONS ONLY" event, the more I like the idea.

MRPLUTO

Vermillion · « **Reply #14 on:** September 20, 2002, 09:38:51 AM »

You are forgetting one simple little fact in your quest for "realism" (but I won't take the time to go into the whole "No icons isn't realistic either" arguement).

For people to participate in events, it has to be fun. If it isn't fun, they won't show up. For 98% of the AH playerbase, "no icons" is not in the least bit fun. In fact, during the events that I helped too design and run, many of the players complained about the reduced icon range that is commonly used in AH events.