Author Topic: P47, P51, P38...the German view......  (Read 11426 times)

Offline Guppy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2002, 11:42:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by worr

Here are a couple more, Guppy. :)
Thanks, Worr.

Interesting that the "below 20,000 feet" line comes up again and again and again from ex-P-38 pilots. In all the cases I recall coming across, though, they were pilots who'd rotated out before the J-25 and L came along.

Did any of the pilots you spoke with comment on the difference between flying the early F/G/H/Js and the J-25/Ls?

Offline senna

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1318
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2002, 12:51:41 AM »
Hey worr, just remember, over here your Tito and we are Micheal.

(Jackson)

:D

Offline whgates3

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2002, 02:43:08 AM »
Quote
'The mustang (p51)...It would break up during very violent dives and maneuvers.'


'Hub' Zemke's last operational flight before capture is evidence of this...the P-40 could out-dive the 109E

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2002, 03:18:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy
"Our opinion of this twin-boomed, twin-engined aircraft was divided. Our old Messerschmitts were, perhaps, a little faster. But pilots who had fought them said that the Lightnings were capable of appreciably tighter turns and that they would be on your tail before you knew what was happening."


"They" would be...

Americans never showed up alone. You go after one, the other gets at your tail. I donīt think he was talking about a 1:1 situation....

niklas

Offline Guppy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2002, 04:43:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by niklas


"They" would be...

Americans never showed up alone. You go after one, the other gets at your tail. I donīt think he was talking about a 1:1 situation....

niklas
So you're suggesting that MTO Luftwaffe pilots couldn't tell the difference between being outturned and having another fighter show up on their tail?

Maybe every now and then such a mistake might be made in the heat of combat. But Steinhoff's memoirs are set in mid-1943, six months and more after the P-38's appearance in the theatre. The Lightning was very much a known quantity by then.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2002, 04:47:31 AM by Guppy »

Offline Guppy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2002, 04:46:02 AM »
(Accidental double post removed.)

Offline batdog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com/
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2002, 08:22:54 AM »
Baaaa..the 38 was considered an "easy" target in the ETO simply because of lousy training. The high alts, teething problems being first experienced by the first high alt escort fighter in combo w/the lack of training made the 38 a rough ride for those guys. very few pilots had any twin engined flight time or for that matter training in a high perf twin engined plane like the 38. The cockpit controls alone I think were said to be complicated for a guy about to hit combat.

The 38 rocked in the MTO and the PTO... why? Experience. and enviroment. They also had resolved many of the problems encountered in the ETO by then.


Anyway..WIDEWING is a great source of info concerning the inferior POS known as the 38.

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline worr

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2002, 09:35:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy
Did any of the pilots you spoke with comment on the difference between flying the early F/G/H/Js and the J-25/Ls?


Yes!

A pilot who flew in the MTO and then rotated back to the states as a trainer spoke of them. We happened to be speaking to each other in front of a 38L at Osh Kosh, WI.

He said he was envious of the later 38s especially because of the dive flaps. There was genious frustration about the LW fighters ability to dive away from any fight.  Some, like Lowell who nearly shot down Galland, learned to use barrel rolls in their dives to compensate, but that took a good pilot.

He flew the G model, he said. He also said most of his 38 students were going to the PTO by that time...as the 51 was given top priority for the 8th AF.

Worr, out

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2002, 09:37:30 AM »
Ammo, no I don't think the P47 turns too good. I think it turns very good, and I love the plane, specially with a notch of flaps or two I think it turns well. The D11 especially where I've succeeded in outturning spitfires, took a couple of 360 degree turns though.

The P38 however, I think seem way too maneuverable, and WAY too durable. Last week, I took a P38 down to attack a town, took 10 20mm hits (have it on film) and all that happaned was that one engine radiator got hit.

P47 would have been downed after the first 5 probarly, 190 even a bit sooner. Both the P47 and 190 were very well known for the durability.

Some things seem a bit reversed in AH...
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline worr

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2002, 09:49:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by niklas
Americans never showed up alone. You go after one, the other gets at your tail. I donīt think he was talking about a 1:1 situation....


In mid to late 1944, yes. But not in the MTO....or even the ETO in late 1943. The forked tailed devil drivers were always out numbered in both theaters.

There just were enough being manufactured...some 9,200 produced (most of these in 44-45) over 6 years compared to 16,00 Jugs in half that time. Therefore you had only three groups in the MTO 1st, 14th and 82nd. In the ETO you had the 55th and then later the 20th in 1943.

Also no other ac type was going the distance with them in 43. The 38 was over Berlin before the P51! The 8th AF had two 38 squadrons.

Worr, out

Offline Ossie

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 105
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2002, 10:34:43 AM »
It must be a lot easier to perform flap-dependant maneuvers in AH than in real life, simply because we can screw up and try again (read: Tommy McGuire). I would not be surprised if the P-38L in AH has the same maneuvering potential as the real life version (and vice verce) in regards to flap usage, the key word being potential. It takes a lot more pilot input to increase the turn rate in a 38 than it does in many other airplanes.
It would probably be impossible for the German pilots to have identified which version of P-38 they were facing, but up through '43 there were probably not a lot of L's flying around. The F's and G's and H's had a lot of teething problems that were ironed out with the late J's and L's. Factoring in relative pilot quality/familiarity adds a huge part to the equation.
Durability is just a wierd thing altogether, especially in an online environment, such that it can be hard to judge one way or the other. One day it may go down in one hit, the next day it may take ten.

Offline Guppy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2002, 10:44:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by batdog
very few pilots had any twin engined flight time or for that matter training in a high perf twin engined plane like the 38. The cockpit controls alone I think were said to be complicated for a guy about to hit combat.
John Tilley (475th FG) had the following to say about the P-38's negative points:

"What didn't I like about the P-38? High altitude flight and the cockpit layout. Although designed as a high altitude interceptor, it was a pain in the buns above 30,000'. The cockpit heat and windshield deicing were not adequate for cold ambient air. The turbo chargers had a habit of running wild above 30,000'. The cockpit was very cramped (not a real problem for us pint-sized fellows). I would have preferred a stick to the yoke and wheel flight controls in the P-38 and the cockpit layout was God awful compared to the other fighters I've flown. On our 'pitch-out' landing approaches we were reaching for things all over the place and had to change hands on the controls at least twice. In spite of all of the above, I still think it was the greatest aircraft I've ever flown, including five of the AF's earliest jet aircraft."

By the way, Capt. Tilley's account of his second kill might be of interest:

"The 2nd was an Oscar while I was flying in a J model. I was particularly proud of this one 'cause I was able to stay inside this maneuverable little rascal's left turn for 360 degrees while doing about 90MPH, and at less than 1000' above the water. That P-38J was bucking and shuddering all the way around in what was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall. I was so close to the Oscar that his engine oil covered my windshield. For the last half of the turn I was shooting at a dark blur that finally burst into flames."

(I can't imagine how this happened, by the way. Either Capt. Tilley misidentified his opponent, or else the Ki-43 pilot really messed up. There's no way an Oscar should lose a straight-up stallfight with a Lightning, however well-flown the P-38 was.)

Quote
The 38 rocked in the MTO and the PTO... why? Experience. and enviroment. They also had resolved many of the problems encountered in the ETO by then.
I wonder why they didn't detach P-38 air and ground crews from other theatres to make up a veteran core for the 20th and 55th FGs? Both the MTO and SWPA groups had up to a year's solid experience by then. If the USAAF was happy, in late 1943, to send P-38 pilots from North Africa to form the nucleus of new Lightning squadrons in the relatively unimportant CBI, why not for the top-priority ETO?

Quote
Originally posted by Oedipus
Of the 50 enemy aircraft engaged, 25 were destroyed, one probably destroyed and 17 damaged. The 367th lost two pilots KIA. Four other bailed out over enemy held France.
Postwar archive research found that the 367th's most likely opponent on August 25th was JG 6 (formerly ZG 26), which had converted to Fw 190s from Me 110s in July. German records noted the loss of 16 Fw 190s, while claiming 11 P-38s.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2002, 10:48:25 AM by Guppy »

Offline Ossie

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 105
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2002, 12:05:25 PM »
Quote
The real reasons we do not have anything resembling a real WWII environment is mainly because of the AWACS radar used in the game, the lack of modelling an aircraft 100% (ie. mechanical failures, pilot fatigue/failure, armament/ordinance failures etc etc), the total absence of REAL military discipline/organisation and the ever present icon.


I think another big reason is that we tend to get better when we die in AH :)


Regarding the Oscar, it is possible that he mis-ID'd it, but it is possible that the Ki-43 got played (of course the ability of the pilot comes into question). It may have had to do with the relative state of the Oscar (fuel/engine quality, weight, etc), also the left-hand turn. Anyone know which way the torque pulls on the Ki-43? 90mph is slow even for an Oscar. Whatever the situation, Tilley knew how to handle his airplane (although he was playing with fire), departure at that point meant the drink. It would be very interesting to hear about that encounter in length.

Offline worr

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2002, 12:38:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ossie
It would probably be impossible for the German pilots to have identified which version of P-38 they were facing, but up through '43 there were probably not a lot of L's flying around.  


There was a noticible difference between the J/L and the earlier versions. The deepening of the chin on each engine and the movement of the intercoolers was significant.

Then again...there were no L's flying around anywhere near 1943. ;)

Worr, out

Offline Guppy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
P47, P51, P38...the German view......
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2002, 05:21:45 AM »
I definitely agree with your point, Oedipus, and it doesn't really matter whether the score was 25-6 or 16-6. I just thought I'd add on that part about the Luftwaffe kill claims and loss records for completeness's sake. :)

Quote
Originally posted by worr


There was a noticible difference between the J/L and the earlier versions. The deepening of the chin on each engine and the movement of the intercoolers was significant.
Well, true, but given the average fighter pilot's skill at aircraft recognition in WWII... ;)