IL2 calls it flutter............

[Hristo]

Originally posted by straffo


Just to be curious what stick do you have Hristo ?

Spikemaster F22 Pro (digital upgrade), TQS throttle, Elite rudder.

[straffo]

VV a Bodymaster F22

I've heard it's a quite hard stick to move (like the cougar) .
I need to try one as my X36 is starting to wear out ...
it got lot of troubles but at least it don't want to  spike

[Vermillion]

Well.... I wouldn't want to disagree with Dago, who just got his multi-engine license ! (congrats boss!!), but....

I flew an 1944 AT-6 Texan, which is probably as close to a WWII fighter most of us will ever get.  And probably is fairly representative of early and midwar planes in thrust to weight and most other factors.

And in my opinon, it flew quite crisp. It was very responsive to the controls, and didn't bounce or oscillate in the least. There was no "Mush" and if you centered the controls, the manuever stopped (as in 4 point rolls).  In fact it was so responsive that the first time I tried a fast roll, I bounced my head off the side of the cockpit, and I knew it was coming.

The only difference I noticed was that before the instructor trimmed the plane out, it tended to fly with one wing slightly lower due to what is commonly called torque.

But he trimmed the plane once, and didn't touch it again for the flight. Unlike some sims, where you "fly the trim" and have too constantly fiddle with it.

Just my experience.

[Toad]

Don't have IL-2 yet but I am going to give it a try this winter when my daily life slows up a bit.

Just one question, are the developers talking about "fixing" the stick scaling routines?

It seems to me that something this critical shouldn't be such a PITA.

I mean if EVERY aircraft has to be scaled differently in order to get it to fly correctly... shouldn't there be an easy reliable process to do so? Or, better yet, no need to scale them individually and an easy way to set up your stick correctly?

Are they talking about this? Because frankly, I'd put this kind of thing in the "game flaw" category.

Thanks.

[Wotan]

rudder input is imho by far the worst. Theres been no talk of "fixing" it. Trim is so over done in il2 you can actually fly and perform manuvers just using trim.

Theres a huge difference between planes, i dunno if this is do to a difference in fms or scaling between planes.

But would you rather sleep with a good looking stupid blond or a plain ordinary chic with "personality.

Thats how I view the ah il2 differences.

[Toad]

Just wish they'd make it a bit easier to do the set up part. Playing around endlessly with stick scaling generally starts to make me think there are better uses of my limited computer time.

Well, Wotan.. you know what the old bull said to the young bull.   So I'll probably still work them both in at some point.

[AKSWulfe]

I've been flying with the stick set to 100 across the board since Il2 was released... since they have a crappy joystick setup that will not allow you to select, calibrate, or setup any joysticks that are not on ID0. (or is it ID1?)

So, I have to sit there, open up conf.ini and manually adjust numbers until I think it's right, then re-run Il2.

Toad, you think simply trying to get the right stick scaling is a PITA... you just don't know what I have to go through!

Flying with 100 across the sliders gave me horrid stability control and gunnery was a squeak.

Setting up the numbers so they are closer to what I use in AH, gunnery is easy, but the planes don't appear to manuever as sharply as they did before.

So in the end, you look at the problem as "is gunnery better, or is flying my plane better?"

And on top of all that, it seems as though I can manuever the plane better than anyone else and get tighter manuevers with 100 across the board than I do with anything else...

Of course, I guess it doesn't really matter, since as Wotan said you can manuever your plane with simply trim... and here's a tip: I have a X36 and programmed the thumb rotary to elevator trim...

it actually gives me an advantage when I trim the elevator up when I'm turning in that I can turn faster and stall less!

But it's still a pretty fun game..
-SW

[Dux]

It's so difficult to get a clear picture by hearing everyone's descriptions of the feelings of their controls.

In my opinion, there is way too much bounce in AH's controls. I've been in the game for a couple of years now, and I've tried every possible combination of scaling, deadzone, damping. Maybe it's my stick (X36), but I think I should have found something satisfying by now. You guys who claim that AH feels "like it's on rails"... either your description is lacking, or you truly experience different joystick inputs than I've been able to achieve.

Mind you, my experience is limited to Cessnas, but I have to agree with Karnak in listening to the Spit ace.

Now that Hitech has a little time in real aircraft, I'd like to hear his thoughts on the matter.

[Wotan]

hmmm dux i fly ah with all my sliders at 100% in ah no dead band and have no nose bounce at all.

Ah to me is sharp crisp and responsive.

wb3s isnt just mush there a control delay. You can look at you ailerons and rolll left the return to center and watch as the aileron "slowly returns".

I am no pilot, I am afraid of heights. Of The small planes I flew in one was over the grand canyon, which freaked me out as we approached the canyon over the desert we were nice and level and as we got over the canyon it felt as if the button dropped out for a second. The other time was when I was in the navy and enroute to submarine school. We flew into Groton and landed on a strip that faced some water. The wind must of been blowing as I looked forward we were flying side ways as we approached the runway. Right before we touched down the pilot straightened up and sat us down. Not for me. I cant imagine that an aileron would slowly return given the force of the wind flowing over it.

The advice I got to fly wbs was left aileron, stop then return to center, stop wait for aileron to return, the right aileron stop center stop etc. How can scissors doint that?

Ils is no where near as bad but in my unqualified opinion it seem not to make sense. But I will leave that to the experts.

[jbroey3]

Don't have IL-2 yet but I am going to give it a try this winter when my daily life slows up a bit.

Well Toad, Do you really have anything to say then on the issue?

I dont think so.

Just wish they'd make it a bit easier to do the set up part.

Toad, Again, tell us how hard it was for you to set it up if you have never tried it yet? Im still trying to figure that one out.

Of course, I guess it doesn't really matter, since as Wotan said you can manuever your plane with simply trim...

Well gee how about that. You know that is exactly what happens in reality as well Swulf.

it actually gives me an advantage when I trim the elevator up when I'm turning in that I can turn faster and stall less!

You trim for airspeed Swulf at a specific power setting. A direct byproduct of trim is movement. (the aircraft's trimmed surface is now interacting with the airflow of wich acts on its trimmed surface).

But would you rather sleep with a good looking stupid blond or a plain ordinary chic with "personality

It is funny, Il2 not only has a Higher level of graphic detail but a far more intracate level of personality than that of Aces high.

This is shown through many immersion details that are not present in Aces High.

Tell me what part of Aces High contains the level of detail afforded to each and every individual modeled aircraft that Il2 contains. Oh, not to even mention the ships, tanks and Cities that Il2 has.

Aces High has NO immersion in itself. The people that play it are what creates the illusion. Also tell me what portion of Aces High shows specifics on each and every individual machine of war (tanks/boats/aircraft) that Il2 contains.

Il2 is progressing every single day in many ways. I would even go as far as to say surpassing the level of output that the HTC crew does presently.

Oleg has already stated that he is looking forward to a complete Virtual battle field with player controlled devices. They have already implemented the ability to have MULTIPLE people controlling stations on bombers (To be realeased with Forgotten Battles). The day is going to come when Il2 with its already prevailing detail of weapons of war are going to be player controlled and on a large scale.

Point: When this happens you will not only have all the pluses of Il2's immersion but also an addition of the Human factor.    

As this discussion is primarily focused on Stick scaling and ways to achive a simular setup to that of Aces High, I would like to add that I have not ONCE had to alter my scaling for flight.

Using an X-45, elite pedals, and Dhauzimmer's Drivers everything functions excellent.

[Toad]

Ewwwwwwwwww... just a bit touchy and defensive there, aren't we?

I guess I can have an opinion about how an aircraft flies in RL, can't I? I do have some experience in that area, including flying numerous WW2 trainer aicraft and riding in several complex ones up to B-25's.

As to commenting on the stick aspect:

I've seen an awful lot of folks posting about the difficulty in getting the stick right in IL-2. You happen to be the very first I've seen that has hasn't had a single problem.

I sat right next to Milo at the con as he attempted to get his stick working and correctly scaled in IL-2. I watched him try to fly and I myself flew it a bit.

First impressions count for a lot, and that first impression left me wondering if it was worth my time at all. I guess I can take a few bugs in the game itself but when the interface is a PITA, I lose interest pretty fast. Which is why I'll wait till the dead of winter when I'm bored witless to wrestle with a problem that's been posted on and highlighted in most of the reports I've read about IL-2. I'm more likely to try to work through the PITA if I have lots of time to work it.

Now that's just my opinon.. one I feel I'm entitled to, btw. I'm sure it gets your neck hairs to stand up, but that's you're problem I think.. not mine.

[AKSWulfe]

I know how trim works in real life Deezcamp ...

and it is not how Il2 has it modelled... I'll give ya a hint, Il2 does not model trim tabs, but instead the trim actually moves the entire elevator surface.

You can argue it as much as you like, it just ain't right in Il2.
-SW

[Wlfgng]

both are games attempting to simulate reality.

have you ever flown/ridden in a small prop powered ftr or stunt plane?  The smallest little wind currents tend to buffet the plane.. same with flight controls.. very crisp and responsive but with something neither sim has IMO, minute changes in attitude due to atmosphere.  These are tiny aircraft in comparison with today's planes.
 The 'fudge' factor in IL2 is just that.. a fudge factor trying to simulate the little changes in attitude.
 AH has it right IMO except for the lack of such buffeting.
It seems like the responsiveness is correct but just missing the little bumps and thumps associate with real 'air'.

Until computer games/sims can entirely model all the little nuances associate with RL flight, weather, etc they will be force to apply some kind of substitute.



so it comes down to personal preference... IMO


btw, don't trim tabs in RL help initiate flight surface movement ?
The do on some AC.

[Fishu]

AKSwulfe,

AH nor IL2 doesn't model Bf109's pitch trim correctly.
Surprisingly WWIIOL does this correctly.. oh the irony :>

Bf109 pitch trim moves the whole horizontal stabilizer.

[Wotan]

yeah but u black out and die right after you adjust trim