A question of numbers? (related to P47, P51, P38...the German view......)

[DeadDuck]

Originally posted by Wotan
The lw avoided the allied fighters to engage the bombers. The lw rarely had attacks of more then 100 fighters and most of the lw in the west front was within range of the p47.

The FIRST P-47 group to reach combat was the 56th joining the VIII AF in JANUARY of 1943.

So basically it was the LW fighters against undefended bombers?  

Even if we count the _bombers_ the numbers arent 10:1.  You people have gone beyond silly into the realm of creative fiction.

DD

[Naudet]

Wotan, i am speaking of 1943 and if i remember right the standard JG of 1943 had only 3 Staffeln and not 4. The 4th Staffel was introduced to answer the increasing strenght of the allied air arms.


And about the general situation.
There was a big arrogance among the leading Nazi-leaders, they though the LW could beat any enemy to crap and Goeriung encouraged them in that view as he overestiminated the strength of the LW.

One fact that cannot be denied is that in 1943 the whole LW was already streched to its absolute limits, defending a giant area from the Northcap in Norway to Tunesia in North Africa and from Brest in France to Kursk in Russia.
The LW success in those days was mainly based on the still very high quality of the LW pilots and their planes. But allied mistakes due to missing experience did their part too in those LW successes.
And as the numbers and experience of the allied increased the backbone of experienced LW pilots was slowly broken.
As far as i know the LW Squadrons were outnumbered on all fronts, but had the advantage that there JG- and Staffel-leaders were extremly capable pilots and they fough over their own territory, while (especially with the 8th USAAF) they faced a relativly inexperienced enemy.

But in early 1944 all allieds had learned there lessons and the USAAF did extremly well. Even in the air they fought a attrition war, that the LW could only lose as it missed the neccessary resources and training capacities.
All tactics the western allieds used from 1944 to the end of the war, were to effectivly neutralized the LW everywere. They intercepted LW-attack formations when they formed up, they flew fighter swepts to known LW-airfields. Escorted fighters had free hunting orders after completing their escort work.

All this put the small LW under extrem pressure, as it could not like 1943 choose were and when to fight.
This is why the allied won, they had the numbers to fight the LW everywere.

It has barrely anything thing to do with plane quality or pilot strength, it is just the fact that even the best LW ace couldnt rest a second and if he did, it was likely he would have been surprised and killed.
Such things wore out the LW and killed it.

In "normal" encounters of even strenght, even the "non-elite" JG of the LW scored well up to the end of the war.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Glasses
After that in late '43 numbers began reaching odds of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.
By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more.  

boy, the LW sure had poor SA, huh?

[Wotan]

the nmbers I posted for lw reprent numbers from 43 onward lw strength in west in 42 was:

Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
Total of 112 a/c


At this time jg 1 was alone defending the Reich and jg 5 was flying outdated ac

3 x 112 =336 to cover all of western europe and germany


Not all were operational.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Wotan
3 x 112 =336 to cover all of western europe and germany
Not all were operational.

damn, looks like they bit off more than they could chew.

The German military branches (and general population) of the time get absolutely zero, zip, nada sympathy from me - it was a war of pure aggression and greed.

[Widewing]

Go back to the original thread and read my post. That will explain what is being discussed, because some of you guys have lost any sense of context.

My regards,

Widewing

[Wotan]

damn, looks like they bit off more than they could chew.

The German military branches (and general population) of the time get absolutely zero, zip, nada sympathy from me - it was a war of pure aggression and greed.

you are corect the rest of the lw was engaged on the east front or NA.

The lw had less aircraft on ther eastern front then they had for the battle of britain. During the battle of the britain fighter production was that of peace time.

The lw, the heer, the Nazis made numerous mistakes from starting the war to begin with to the way they fought it etc.

Thats a given.

But when someones to paint an inaccurrate picture of 4 p38s entering a melee being numbered 20 to 1 its a bit much. The lw targeted the bombers.

The fact of the matter is the lw were fighting a war against the allied bombers until late 44. It was a war they could not win.

[Wilbus]

Oldman, as for LW fighter pilots claims, they weren't much overestimated, sometimes not at all.

There is agreat book explaining the air war on the Western Front, JG26 Diary, you might, and others might wanna read it instead of just believing everything you've read in a single book.

Most of the kills claimed by JG26 have actually been confirmed by the allies, quite intersting.

[akak]

Originally posted by Glasses


By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more.  

That's because the Luftweenies got their tulips handed back to them.  Can't field an airforce when most of your pilots are six feet under.  So much for the uber race.


ack-ack

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Oldman, as for LW fighter pilots claims, they weren't much overestimated, sometimes not at all.

There is agreat book explaining the air war on the Western Front, JG26 Diary, you might, and others might wanna read it instead of just believing everything you've read in a single book.

Most of the kills claimed by JG26 have actually been confirmed by the allies, quite intersting.

Wilbus, we were going over this in a thread started by Frenchy, I think, called "Thruth or fiction," something like that.  Caldwell, in fact, is the one who pointed out that there AREN'T any confirmed kill records on the German side, because the RLM records were lost during/after the war.  What we have are claims.  Caldwell also mentions, in several places, examples of overclaiming, which, in the case of 4-engine bombers, he figures might be double the actual kills.  I don't want to repeat here everything we wrote in that thread, though, but my position is the same - the German claims are SO out of relation to every other combatant country - every one - that I don't buy them.

- oldman

[Glasses]

Oldman sure you don't buy and probably won't have to again the allies won so you make up whatever history you would like to hear. If you want to hear the LW fighter pilots were all evil genocidal Nazis sure. I could say the same for all the bomber pilots they were evil Genocidal Maniacs with bombs and strafing houses of civilians I could say the same, and to some point it's the truth, I'd be call crazy of course because it's not compatible with the history written by the victors.

You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide  but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies, at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?

Actually Caldwell puts an interesting POV some kills were awarded that were not true while some kills that were indeed the reality were not awarded and some were not even filed that had indeed been confirmed. So it all balances out and  if you read and comprehened what you're reading you can see many instances where this has happened. Also is good to note that the allies in the west had also the P-47s squadrons and Spitfires from time to time escort the bombers to and from the targets.

Like Naudet said it was a war of attrition and the Germans simply could not keep up into replacing their losses. It is true the leadership, the nazi leadership is to blame for the blatant mistakes and judgement in strategy. In peace they were the strength and in war time they were the weakness that brought it down,simple as that.

Ack-Ack I notice you don't have an argument or counter argument . So  try for you children's sake to diversify the gene pool perhaps the next generation might be able to put more than one liners.

[DeadDuck]

Originally posted by Wotan
3 x 112 =336 to cover all of western europe and germany


Not all were operational.

So basically the strength of the LW at begginning of 43 was actually 2:1 in favor of the LW on any long range raid?

At LEAST 2:1 I should say since I can find out how low the 38 strength dropped between Torch and the start of the POINTBLANK.

DD

[Wotan]

you are implying that all the lw fighters would be in there air at one time and operating in one sector along with all the p38s which wasnt the case.

[bockko]

You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies, at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?

Lets see: 6 million slaughtered in camps; entire nations over run; unrestricted submarine warfare; police state that killed its own citizens;

As a retired military member it galls me that people love the WW2 German cause so much. Stalin wasn't so bad eh? Pol Pot was ok. In the end you have a maniacle murderer running a powerful war machine. Many soldiers 'did their duty' with honor...but their cause, in the big picture of humanity, was dishonarable.

[BUG_EAF322]

I never said wabble pilots where nazi's
although in RL they where. Rotterdam used to be a beautiful city it really aint anymore.

never complained about luftwaffe planes
(they all very capable)

Hey someone might just like the look of it ok
I think the Ta 152 is a nice one for example

I never complained about the p38 either even when it had it's glass tail. I fly the thing from 1.03, and AH is modeling the p38 as close as the is available in the sim market.
Also all other planes including the waffe plane.

In a close fight the P38 just eats all late war waffe planes except a well flown FW 190-D and A5
these fighters are excellent so i have experienced
Ask Moot or Hermit seen them doing amazing things in it

I also never searched for a book with the right numbers that suits me.

I just don't understand why there is so many whining from the wabble corner about the p38.

any late war waffe plane can extend from a p38 and withstand some .50 hits A P38 always has to fight when engaged by late war planes. And is not able to escape when they pick on u. And any 30 mm hurts.

This ignorant wable view just anoyes me. Saying the p38 was a pos coz some super luftwaffe pilot said so. That's just BS