Author Topic: Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested  (Read 502 times)

Offline Vermillion

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« on: July 28, 2000, 04:03:00 PM »
Here is the information I have for the Yak-9UT that we have discussed. I have seen bits and pieces of it in many of my reference books. But the most complete by far in a single reference has been

Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War, Volume One: Single-Engined Fighters, by Yefim Gordon and Dmitri Khazanov

And reportedly this book was written in Russia, by Russian authors, using original VVS documents.  So I will reference this book as my primary source, over my other references which are admittedly secondary western sources.

The primary information begins for the Yak-9UT begins page 157.

 
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Yak-9UT:The Yak-9U and other Yak varients were used to test a range of armament alternatives; 23mm, 37mm and 45mm guns.  To install these it was necessary to remove the synchronized machine guns, B-20 sychronized guns being installed instead.
     The possibility of installing different engine mounted guns without the need for airframe modification was the designs most valuable feature, allowing a rapid change of armament, according to VVS requirements, during series production.  The aircraft was designated Yak-9UT.  Clearly, each armament installation a different effect upon weight, centre of gravity and flying performance, but the speed was the same as the Yak-9U. Handling was almost the same except for elevator load, which was heavy, this being the aircrafts most serious shortcoming.
     Main advantage of the Yak-9UT was its heavy salvo weight , 13.2 lb/sec (6kg/sec) using the NS-37 and two B-20s..... <edit sniped>

Additional information can be inferred by reading the section on the Yak-9T, Yak-9TK, and the Yak-9K, starting on page 143, since the Yak-9UT is literally the late model Yak-9TK.

 
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{from page 146} Most effort was concentrated on improving the Yak-9's armament. The synchronized 12.7mm UBS machine gun with 200 rounds of ammunition was replaced by the ShVAK (SP-20) gun with 175 rounds.

Now from the discussion and the designation, plus the later statement in the -UT section,  I assume they mean the B-20 gun (20mm) with 175 rounds of ammunition, which incidentally used the same ammunition as the ShVAK.

 
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{again from page 146}This thinking  led to the next variant, the Yak-9TK, to be used in the development of engine mounted heavy cannon.  In response to VVS requirements the aircraft was designed for the first time to mount any of the following guns: the 20mm ShVAK, the 23mm VYa, and the 37mm and 45mm NS.  To install any of these weapons it was necessary to only change the attachement point and gun ammunition supply unit , and this could be done even under field conditions

So far the only inconsistency is in the above paragraph it references the 23mm VYa, instead of the NS-23 referenced in the -UT section.

 
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{continuing on page 146}Yak-9K     Universal gun mountings found their application on the Yak-9  later, when the Yak-9U went into series production.  The NS-45 attracted the designers attention because of its unusual firepower, and work on its installation was continued on the Yak-9K ... <snip> The NS-45 was fed by a belt feed, as on the NS-37.  The ammunition comprised 29 shells, the pilot having a shell store counter in the cockpit.

Now I understand you didn't want to include the 37mm or 45mm guns, but I thought I would include this information on those guns and their ammunition loads purely for informational purposes only, since it is the only place I have ever seen it stated.  The only ammunition load out that I cannot find an ammunition count  for is the 23mm cannon.

Lastly in our conversation yesterday Pyro, you said that your greatest hesitation about including the x3 20mm loadout or the x2 20mm + x1 23mm loadout, was that you hadn't seen any pictures of aircraft armed in this manner. So what I did was start to look for Yak-9's armed in this manner.

Here is a standard Yak-9U to use as our basis.   In particular notice how the hub mounted cannon and two nose mounted cannon look. This picture is from page 160
   

Now for comparison purposes, this is the Yak-9UT, armed with the 37mm, the look that you said you expected  too see for any of the heavy cannon installations  with the large barrel and muzzle break (FYI for everyone else, the 45mm installation looks almost identical} This picture is from page 159
   

Now I couldn't find any picture of a Yak-9UT with either the x3 20mm option or the 23mm option. But I did find a picture of the Yak-9P prototype in 1943 that has the exact same armament (x3 20mm option) as the -UT. Note how, the nose and armament visually look identical to the standard armament Yak-9U. (ie no protruding large barrel with muzzle break or additional cowling bumps) Page 148
   

Similarly I found a picture of another Yak-9 prototype armed with the 23mm cannon. Again, note how it looks visually identical to the standard Yak-9U (ie no protruding large barrel with muzzle break or additional cowling bumps). Also it is pertinant to remember that these prototypes are the aircraft that lead directly to the -9TK and the -9UT. Page 148 also.
   

So my theory is that the reason you have never seen a picture of a Yak-9UT armed with the x3 20mm's or the 23mm option, is that you may have and you never knew it.    Since from the photographs, it seems that the only way to detect the changes of the USB MG's to the B-20 Cannon, or the installation of the 23mm engine mounted cannon, is by having an original documented photograph, or actual internal examination of the original aircraft.

Leonid, Sorrow, or anyone else, do you guys have anything more to add ?


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Vermillion
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[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 07-28-2000).]

Offline leonid

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2000, 09:36:00 PM »
Only thing I can add is that:[list=1]
  • very few -9UTs saw combat against Germany, fewer than 300.
  • Oleg Maddox has stated that of all the -9UT heavy cannon variants the only one used in combat against Germany was the NS-23.[/list=a]

    I realize, and understand, Pyro's hesitation to add hi-velocity, heavy caliber cannon armaments to a fighter airframe, simply because of the fact that it will be the new 'tank killer' - even after the Ju87G and Il-2 make their debut.  There is no way in the world you are going to stop some player from jumping into a NS-37-mounted Yak to go and kill ground vehicles.  Also, I understand the reasoning for making the -9UT series a perk plane variant, since so little evidence has appeared concerning these cannons' use in combat.  However, I do think that the NS-23 may be a possible candidate, because it was a low-velocity round (high rate of fire), and there are indications that it was used in combat.

    My two rubles...

    [This message has been edited by leonid (edited 07-28-2000).]
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Offline Pongo

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2000, 12:42:00 AM »
Wow verm.
cool post.
Keep it coming.

Offline flakbait

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2000, 09:14:00 AM »
Yep, leonid has a point. If you armed a Yak-9U with 3 ShVAK cannons you've got trouble. Throw in a 37mm or 45mm cannon and you're talking more firepower than an Il-2 Type 3. Specs for the Ilyushin Il-2 Type 3 Sturmovik

 
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Introduction Date: December 1942
Crew: 2
Engine: AM-38F w/1780hp
Weights: 4525kg empty, 6360kg max
Wing span: 14.6m
Length: 11.6m
Height: 4.11m
Wing area: 38.5 sq/m
Speed: 404kmh
Range: 764km
Service ceiling: 3,500m

Armament[standard]:
Cannons: 2x 23mm VYa cannons w/300 rounds
Machine guns: 2x 7.62mm ShKAS & 1 12.7mm UBT
Bombs: 750kg
Rockets: 4x RS-82mm or 4x RS-132mm
Optional armaments unknown

Not bad, eh? Try the VYa 23mm cannon on for size:

 
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Year: 1941
Caliber: 23mm
Projectile: 200g
Rate of fire: 600 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 900-920 m/sec
Weight: 66-68.5kg
Overall length: 2,140mm
Armor penetration: 25mm steel @ 400m

Now for the B-20 cannon:

 
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Year: 1945
Caliber: 20mm
Projectile: 96g
Rate of fire: 800 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 800 m/sec
Weight: 25kg
Overall length: unknown
Barrel length: unknown

All information taken from: http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/index.html

The catalog room has been known to crash some browsers, so be careful.


Flakbait


Offline Vermillion

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2000, 12:57:00 PM »
Flakbait, for the most part you're looking at the wrong guns.

The x3 20mm Cannon Yak-9UT used the B-20 Cannons, not the ShVak. They both used the same shell, and are similar balistically, but much different in size and weight.

ShVAK  20mm x 99R ( 96 g) 800 rpm  860 m/s  42 kg (gunweight)
B-20  20mm x 99R ( 96 g) 800 rpm  860 m/s  25 kg (gunweight)  

As you can see the B-20 (a derivative of the UBK MG) is only 60% of the weight of a ShVak. So while the total gunweight of a standard Yak-9U is (41kg+(2x21kg))= 83 kg, the x3 B-20 -UT  has a gunweight of 75 kg (3x 25kg). Yes, its actually lighter until you add the heavier ammunition, but they reduced the ammunition load from 200 to 175 on the nose guns, so I expect the total loaded weight to be fairly close.

It should also be understood that the B-20, while not widely available until winter 44-45, was actually in aircraft as early as 1943. Check out the pic of the Yak-9P above.

Also the 23mm VYa (used in the IL-2) and the 23mm NS-23 are two very different guns.

The VYa is a patented tank killer, and I agree that it shouldn't be on the Yak, just like the extremely capable NS-37 and NS-45.

23mm VYa  23 x 152B (200 g) 500 rpm  905 m/s  69 kg
23mm NS-23  23 x 115 (200 g) 550 rpm  690 m/s  37 kg  

Both guns fire a 200g projectile, but thats just about where the similarity ends.  The VYa has a much larger projectile powder charge, and fires its shell at 905m/s, a little over 1.3 times as fast as the NS-23. In other words, its much more capable when it comes to armor penetration with a much flatter trajectory. Also the VYa gun itself is much heavier than the NS-23, degrading the performance of the aircraft upon which it is mounted.

Funked, your right on the numbers (sorry RAM my memory failed me the other day). The ones I have seen say 282 completed and used in combat before the end of the war. But thats definitely more than our current -1C and some other aircraft we have in our inventory.

My question is why would we make it a "perk" plane. Pyro has already stated that planes will be classified as "perks" on capability, not production numbers. And I think you would have a very difficult time convincing me that the Yak-9UT (x3 20's or x2 20's + 23) would be any more capable than the 109G10 (or even the G6) in its heavily armed variants.




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Vermillion
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Offline flakbait

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2000, 04:55:00 PM »
Good points Verm. Still you have to admit, an Il-2 would really kick butt here. Killing tanks, enemy fighters, even buffs at low alts. Then again it would get the BUFFers screaming that the VYa 23mm is overmodeled
Handling of the Il-2 has got to be fairly horrid when fully loaded up with bombs and/or rockets. I wouldn't care; it'd be a killer ride anyway. Low, slow, flying tank; perfect.

And she's perty cute too!

Flakbait

Sorrow[S=A]

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2000, 07:48:00 PM »
And would probably be the only plane here immune to "cannon birds". I still giggle at the verbatim report from russian mechanics asking how to repair meter sized holes cannon shells had blown out of the wings. The plane STILL got back alive..!!

Offline leonid

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2000, 11:56:00 PM »
Yeah, I can't wait for the Il-2.  First, I'm a fighter jock, so flying a 'bomber' won't get me jittery about my k/d ratio (not that it's anything to brag about).  Second, the Sturmovik is tough, and packs a real nice weapons package with an amazing array of armaments and ordinance.  Third, there's a rear gunner to boot!  Finally, when you get an Il-2 light, rockets & bombs dropped, it's surprising how maneuverable it is.

As for the Yak-9UT It'd be neat to have a two UBS, NS-23 package.

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Offline straffo

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2002, 06:20:54 AM »
yet another 2 year old shortcut :)

I'll stop now to dig thread out of their graves :D

Offline Kweassa

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2002, 08:09:17 AM »
So.. does the IL-2 kick butt?

 ...

 Not until tanks are virtually unstoppable with .50s and 20mms it won't ;)

Offline gatt

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2002, 10:46:20 AM »
Leonid, my friend! Cya above forgotten fronts ... ;) :)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Vermillion

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Pyro, Yak-9UT Supporting Information you Requested
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2002, 11:49:49 AM »
Straffo, actually a great lead in !!

I got the new "Piston Engined Yakolev Fighters" book by Gordon & Kharzanov, and it has more information on the Yak-9UT than the previous book.

Nothing really new or groundbreaking, but it confirms much of the information previously posted,  and supports some of the information that was in the first book, but that you had to piece together from various sections and "read between the lines" to guess at.

I'll get it up soon! :)