Author Topic: SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007  (Read 7927 times)

Offline brady

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2003, 03:46:14 PM »
lol:)

Offline Arlo

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2003, 06:20:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
Arlo, is it me or has this hapened before?:)

 Well that is a very nice read on that plane but it doesent say why the SM 79 was not as good as the Z 1007. [/color]

(Snip uber specification argument)

 :)


Yeah ... and I said this:

"You're right, it doesn't say "why the SM79 was not as good as the z1007." It shows that the 79 is good enough. You already know the "uber is better" argument never impressed me much.  

(Snip rest of my retort approximating to "So what?")" :D

Uber ain't the end all and be all of a reason to select one model over the other. If that was the case, then Aces High only needs less than a dozen models period (if that many). ;)

 A total of 560 Cant 1007s were built. The final production version ended in 1943 ... it's operational status ended in `46. Over 1300 SM-79s were built .. it's production also ended in 1943 .... but it's operational life extended into the `50s. Which belies the claim of some sources that the Cant succeeded in replacing and phasing out the SM-79. That may have been the intent ... but obviously not the end result. I know what you'll say to numbers but it really only relates to your insistance that the Alcione kicked the Sparviero to the bench and became the first string torpedo bomber of Italy .... when, in fact, it didn't.

"Regardless of the version, its (the SM-79's) handling pleased most pilots and its ability to come home with extensive damage endeared it even more."

http://www.aviation-history.com/savoia-marchetti/sm79.html

The Sparviero is especially remembered for the excellent torpedo actions in the Med carried out by 132 Gruppo A.S. led by Capitan Buscaglia from `41-`42. During those actions Bucaglia's group managed to sink the destroyers Husky, Jaguar, Kujavik II and  Southwall. They also managed to heavily damage the battleship Malaya and the carriers Indomitable, Victorious and Eagle.

History and heroic deeds often make the difference in the overall community's preference in aircraft modeling.

Speaking of history. Here's a very interesting read I ran across when researching the Sparviero (you may enjoy it):

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/9601/corradini.html
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 06:24:17 PM by Arlo »

Offline brady

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2003, 07:08:27 PM »
While I can certainly understand wanting a plane that you feal is cooler for what ever reasion, I cant get behind backing a leser preforming plane espichaly in a situation like this one whear they were both in service at the same time and the Allied plane set their to be set aganst has the best preformers from their stable for the same time perioud.

Offline Arlo

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2003, 10:48:04 PM »
Like I've said before, time and again .... if performance statistics (from sources that vary) is all that counts toward modeling aircraft for Aces High, then it needs to be cut down, not added to. ;)

Offline Rutilant

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #94 on: July 26, 2003, 12:46:04 AM »
gonna break a rib with all that chest beatin, is why i just gave up after i figured out how 'persistant' brady is being. ;)

Offline brady

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #95 on: July 26, 2003, 12:49:28 AM »
Well I thik your missing the point her Arlo (and I feal antagonestic only because I want to bait you into extending this debate till we reach the centuary mark)....LOL:), If Italty is going to get just one bomber why make it somthing thats a lesser machine when their are two equily as addable for the same time frame, it will just add to the balance inequaity that exists in the Allied Axis plane set for this perioud, presently it's primary antagonast in the bomber catagory is the Boston, although we could get a Wellington I supose.

Offline Rutilant

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2003, 01:08:43 AM »
Whyyyy we like the Sm79? because it has the sleek, gracefull looks of a mini or a honda civic, and it looks a heck of a lot more fun to fly, and hopefully our version will have a 20mm, and.. and..]


Wanna bet HTC isnt reading this anymore?

Offline brady

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2003, 12:15:51 PM »
I dont think they have read any of this thread except maybe the first few post's which were done a long time ago, I am prety shure they note with some interest the wants of the players but only to a point and they cant realy give us what we want and an Italian bomber is prety low on the we got do it totem pole, most debates like this are simply somthing for us players to do, another aspect of the game if you will.

Offline Rutilant

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #98 on: July 26, 2003, 01:36:24 PM »
Just so long as it doesnt matter.. ;)

Offline Furball

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #99 on: July 26, 2003, 02:46:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo

History and heroic deeds often make the difference in the overall community's preference in aircraft modeling.
 


Very true, thats why we need the Gladiator and Swordfish (incidentally may have some relevance to this post - as it outserved its intended successor, and supposedly higher performance Albacore)
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #100 on: July 26, 2003, 03:13:15 PM »
SM-79 carried only one torpedo in combat, it had two torpedo hardpoints but both were only used if it was a non combat ferry mission. So the z1007 actually does have a much more useful war load.

That said I still prefer the SM-79 because I like the plane more and it's more of a classic.  

Basically:

SM-79=B17
z1007=B24

While the latter are cleraly better performers, I greatly prefer the former...

Offline Arlo

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #101 on: July 26, 2003, 03:48:18 PM »
That was more likely due to torpedo shortages and not the craft's inability to effectively carry two torpedos in combat. Read the following where the pilot describes both torpedo shortages and the unfortunate and dangerous neccessity of bringing back live torpedos due to the shortage. :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dal: "My mission log shows that I flew 20 war missions: 6 with bombs, 5 with torpedo and 9 as armed escort or armed patrol. Armed escort was usually with bombs which we would drop on any ship or formation which was approaching or threatening the vessels we were escorting - usually cargo ships. Armed patrol was with a torpedo, which we would launch against any ship we would intercept before turning back and giving their position, via radio, to the Air Command of Sardinia. On one occasion (March 1, 1943) I came back with the torpedo because I couldn't get close to the British formation due to the strong opposition of their fighter planes. Considering the escort and patrol missions, I guess that of my 20 missions, 10 were with bombs and 10 with torpedo."

[ Note: Bringing back a torpedo was not without risk. In J. Sadkovich's Italian Navy in WWII he mentions the actions the Sardinian Torpedo squadrons of the Airforce assisted in. Air launched torpedo shortages were constant. American aircraft were told to salvo bombs and torpedoes especially if the fields they had to return to were as rough as were the one at Milis. I asked Dal about shortages. ]

"Our group in Sardinia was isolated and took orders from the Air Force general in charge of the island. If the order from headquarters was to go out with the bombs because there were no torpedoes we wouldn't have known. We received all armament from the main warehouse and we followed orders without inquiring why this and not that. Therefore, if there were shortages we were not told. We knew of spare parts shortages because very often the answer to our requests was "Not in stock". In such cases we had to find a way to fix the old or damaged ones . I remember cases when, for lack of tires we would have our "specialists" make do by using some wire or tape to keep them from jumping off the rims. As for the mounting of torpedoes or bombs on the plane there was no problem because the plane was the same old "bombardier" with the addition of some outside hooks to carry the torpedo; no other conversion was necessary."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another interesting addition to AHII would be the "mad bomb" ... even though this pilot admits never (personally) getting to use them in combat.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"My war missions were 5 as a bombardier and 15 as a torpedo pilot, all against the British Fleet, with the SM 79 and the SM 84. My first mission was on May 10, 1941 with the bombs and the last one on March 27, 1943 with the torpedo. The "mad bombs" (bombe matte) were actually small torpedoes which, were parachute retarded, entered the water when released from the parachute and, with the rear propeller going, they would go around in an expanding spiral until they hit something or exploded by themselves at the end of their run. I had some training with them but never had occasion to use them in a war mission. My training as torpedo pilot started at the end of 1940 and my torpedo missions took place from Jan. '42 to March '43."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/9601/corradini.html

It certainly doesn't sound like a second torp mount for ferrying purposes was the actual design intent nor practice. Besides ... if you can "ferry" it ... you can carry it. ;)

Offline brady

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #102 on: July 26, 2003, 09:26:32 PM »
Nice read Arlo thank's.

   
  I just dont see the Beauty in the the SM 79 (looks wise), I think The Cant is a much cooler looking plane personaly.

Offline Sakai

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2003, 01:39:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
SM-79 carried only one torpedo in combat, it had two torpedo hardpoints but both were only used if it was a non combat ferry mission. So the z1007 actually does have a much more useful war load.

That said I still prefer the SM-79 because I like the plane more and it's more of a classic.  

Basically:

SM-79=B17
z1007=B24

While the latter are cleraly better performers, I greatly prefer the former...


My understanding was that they could carry two and did in combat but upon finding that the handling of the plane was degraded by carrying two torps they reverted to carrying just the one.

Sakai
"The P-40B does all the work for you . . ."

Offline GRUNHERZ

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SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2003, 04:54:36 PM »
Whatever the reason it stands that they carried only one torpedo in combat. :)

Still the SM79 is too cool to not have in the game - imagine the user add on skins to that baby!  :D