AH Spitfire Mk V vs AH 190 A5 Tests

[funkedup]

Thx Nashwan, I had lost the link.

[funkedup]

Wilbus, here's the engine settings for the comparative testing:

http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/pro_190_survey_c_1.jpg

Test the AH planes at those settings and see what you get.  I suspect it will be closer to the subjective comparisons in the text of the report.

"Ok, let's compare these planes, fly theirs on full power,, fly ours on like 80% instead and see how much better theirs is, then write in the report how much more superior their plane is." Just plane silly.

Yes it seems silly, but it's what they did.  See my earlier post for a possible motive.

[Wilbus]

AH TA152 is modelled with MW 50 but not GM1, which makes it SUCKS at high alt compared to what it should do.

[Wilbus]

That page shows that all planes were run with WEP for 3 minutes. Not just the 190. It does also show the spitfire 5 was modified after and could be run higher.

This does not take away the fact that the 190 A3 still outaccelerated the Spitfire 9 in the test in dive, climb from level flight and climb/zoom climb from dives. The spit 5 was made better but was not as good as the Spit 9 in the tests.

These test (the full test reoprt) reports teh 190 to haveing a much better acceleration then the Spitfire. And a better acceleration, qute much better in zooms then the Spit 9.

It doesn't anywhere say the allied planes were tested with lower throttle except the Spitfire V that was later modified to handle more but was, during the tests, run at full.

Can somebody give me the difference/convert between ata, boost and the US meassuring?

[bigUC]

From Capt. Eric Browns "Wings of the luftwaffe":
" The AFDU comparisons between the Focke-Wulf and the Spitfire Mk IX - with the former's BMW 801 at 2700 rpm and 20.8 lb (1.42 atas) boost and the latter's Merlin 61 at 3000 rpm and 15 lbs (1.00 ata)  - had revealed that the German fighter was  7-8 mph faster than its British counterpart at 2000 ft but that the speeds of the two fighters were virtually the same at 5000 ft.  Above this altitude the Spitfire began to display a marginal superiority, bein about 8 mph faster at 8000 ft and 5 mph faster at 15000 ft. the pendulum then swung once more in favour of the Focke-Wulf which proved itself some 3 mph faster at 18000 ft, the two fighters level pegging once more at 21000 ft and the Spitfire then taking the lead until, at 25000 ft it showed a 5-7 mph superiority.

In climbing, little difference was found between the Fw 190 and the spitfire Mk IX up to 23000ft, above which altitude the climb of the German fighter began to fall off and the difference between the two aircraft widened rapidly."  

The next few sentences are the most interesting:
" From high-speed cruise, a pull up into a climb gave the Fw 190 an initial advantage owing to its superior acceleration and the superiority of the German fighter was even more noticeable when both aircraft were pulled up into a zoom climb from a dive.  In the dive, the Fw 190 could leave the Spitfire Mk IX without difficulty and there was no gainsaying that in so far as manĉuvrability was concerned, the German fighter was markedly the superior of the two in in all save the tight turn - the Spitfire could not follow in aileron turns and reversals at high speeds and the worst heights for its pilot to engage the Fw 190 in combat were between 18000 and 22000 ft, and at altitudes below 3000 ft."

Hope this is enlightening....

[Naudet]

LOL funkedup, that page actually shows that Wilbus statement was right.

FW190 speed run with 2700 rpm 1.42 ata

all other test FW190 run at 2450 rpm 1.35 ata

maybe you should read the explanation and not just read the listings.

[bigUC]

Originally posted by Wilbus

Level acceleration at 10,3k.
Time from 200mph to 300mph.

Spitfire Mk V: 46 seconds.

Fw 190 A5: 52 seconds.

Dive from 10k flying in 300mph followed by a 90 degree zoom from 5k

Both planes had reached a speed of about 470mph at the time of the zoom. More tests will be made when it comes to dive acceleration.

Spitfire Mk V reached an altitude of 11,5k before stalling out.

The Fw 190 reached an altitude of 11,8k before stalling out.
B]

I cannot see how the errors in the flight model could be stated any clearer?

[funkedup]

Originally posted by Wilbus
It doesn't anywhere say the allied planes were tested with lower throttle except the Spitfire V that was later modified to handle more but was, during the tests, run at full.

Wilbus, compare the power settings for the Spits on that page, with what we have in the game.

[funkedup]

Originally posted by Naudet
LOL funkedup, that page actually shows that Wilbus statement was right.

FW190 speed run with 2700 rpm 1.42 ata

all other test FW190 run at 2450 rpm 1.35 ata

maybe you should read the explanation and not just read the listings.

Naudet he's right about the 190s but not the Spits.

[Mister Fork]

All the 190's (including the 152) in AH have acceleration problems.  It's all related to engine torque but I'm not sure if it's adjustable in this game engine.

The 109 is dead on (somewhat), but the 190's are slow pigs to accelerate when in real life they were flying engines.

[Wilbus]

Just compared it to AH Funked, now it looks even more badly modelled. As teh chart there says, all speed runs were made with WEP for 3 minutes, that included ALL PLANES not just the 190.

For the comparative performance trials between the F.W.190 and various British and American fighter aircraft shown in this report  (pares(?). 47 to 87), all level speed runs were fpr two minutes and maximum emergency (3 minute) ratings...)

For some reason, in some mysterious way, you all seem to think that this: ALL LEVEL SPEED RUNS aswell as the various BRITTISH and AMERICAN fighter aircraft... means the 190 was run at WEP but the Brittish and American planes were not. Which is WRONG.

As for AH, running alot above what these tests say the US and Brittish planes did, I think it is AH that has modelled it wrong and not the test reoports that are wrong.

Quite obviously, 15lbs in the Spit 9 tested against the 190 (the worst spit 9, same as we're suposed to have in AH although it is a bit porked) was indeed WITH WEP as stated by the document.

How you all can possibly make the VERY clear text to "the 190 was tested with War Emergency power, but as we didn't quite want our spits  to outperform it we didn't use WEP for those".

Another quite insteresting thing is that the 190 A3 engine became in worse and worse condition during the trails.

So please, with chance of sounding rude... stop the BS about the Allied planes being flown on less throttle and no WEP. Because that is all it is... BS.

[funkedup]

Wilbus, no reason to get grumpy.  

The fact remains that AFDU tested the Spits V and IX at power levels below what are considered WEP (maximum emergency rating) and MIL (maximum continuous climbing rating) in AH, while the Fw 190A-3 was tested at power levels approximately equal to WEP and MIL in AH.  And this is likely the cause of the discrepancies you pointed out in your initial post.

The question of why the boost levels are different, is a separate matter.  I think my conspiracy theory about AFDU is probably wrong.  It seems that the boost limits for those Spits were later revised upwards, and AFDU was just using the boost limits which were in effect at the time.  AH is using the later, higher boost limits, hence the difference between AFDU findings and AH findings.  I'll post some of the pages from the Pilot's Notes which support this.

[funkedup]

OK I found the manual information.  You can find the full text of the Pilot's Notes at Snafu's excellent website.

Here's the Spit V ratings.  It seems that in order to match the AFDU climb results, you will need to climb the Spit V at +9 boost.

[funkedup]

And here are the Spit 9 ratings.

[funkedup]

So if you want to get the same results as AFDU, you need to use these power settings:


Climb
Fw 190: 1.35 ata, 2450 rpm
Spit V: +9 psi, 2850 rpm
Spit IX: +12 psi, 2850 rpm

Level Speed
Fw 190: 1.42 ata, 2700 rpm
Spit V: +12 psi, 3000 rpm
Spit IX: +15 psi, 3000 rpm