Author Topic: HTC, I'm confused!  (Read 595 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2002, 10:50:29 AM »
Didn't we do this thread about 100 times in the Aircraft forum? :D

DingHao, still confused?

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2002, 11:02:16 AM »
Quote
But for the record. I never asked for the P-80 to be included either


Right back at me :D
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2002, 12:03:40 PM »
Seriously, where did that info from the K14 come from?  

Everything I've seen says that only two or three K6's were made and were the last of the line.  And even those sources say that the existence of the K6's were potentially just myths.

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2002, 12:11:28 PM »
The "M" most likely stands for "Motoren", indicating it was made to be mounted between the banks of engine cylinders. I've never seen a Mk103 referred to like this, but you'll see some cases of the MG-FF with this designator for the Bf109E-3. They were never able to eliminate vibration problems and this was not widely used in combat. (I think the maojority were removed in the field.) More commonly, you'll see the M designator at the end of the MG-FF to indicate as was posted earlier that they were redesigned to handle minengeschoss rounds. This involved some breech work and a different spring due to the lighter round weight.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2002, 12:33:50 PM »
I think your right.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2002, 12:36:10 PM »
Search in Google with words MK 103M brought up a link to Tony William's site about his books updates:

Chapter 5: Weapons for air fighting-> The German Arsenal

...MK 108 and 108A; MK 103 and 103M; BK 3.7..

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/rfweb.htm

Offline Staga

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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2002, 02:54:03 PM »
mmkay.. (sp?)

Let me put that another way: Does anyone have that book?

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2002, 03:09:15 PM »
Yes. At home. I think it says the engine mount 103 in a 109 is a fantasy. I will look tonight

Offline Staga

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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2002, 03:44:58 PM »
While you're at it could you chect the penetration values for 37mm H Pzgr Patr FlaK 18 with tungsten core, the one used in Ju-87G if that book has anything about it.
Source I have gives pretty impressive penetration for that ammunition and I was wondering if that can be correct...

range 100m, impact in 90 degrees, penetr. 140mm
---------------------60-------------------68mm.
range 600m,--------- 90------------------95mm
---------------------60-------------------47mm.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2002, 03:52:27 PM by Staga »

Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2002, 04:13:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
Seriously, where did that info from the K14 come from?  

Everything I've seen says that only two or three K6's were made and were the last of the line.  And even those sources say that the existence of the K6's were potentially just myths.


Don't have the source for this statement. But it has something about the possible K-14.

Here you go:

The last of the projeeted K variants - the Bf 109K-14 -was perceived at the turn of 1944/45. Its basis was the DB 605L powerplant with the MW device, although a decision was made in November 1944 not to produce this drive unit.
The reasons for this decision were not poor performances of the engine, but the lack ot Daimler-Benz assembly capacity. Their assembly line were fully charged with production of the DB 605A, AS, D and also DB 603 powerplants, the last one being supposed to be used in the new standard fighter of the Luftwaffe - the Ta-152C. Nevertheless, this did not obstruct the Bf 109K-14 development.
Its armament consisted ot three MK 108 cannons, two ot them wing-mounted the last one engine-mounted. and two MG 131 machine guns. The inner equipment corresponded with that of the Bf 109K-4s, but was being constantly improved, e.g. a gyrocompass was to be placed in the upper part ot the fifth section, the port wing leading edge contour was intermitted by a BSK 16 camera. It is believed that some of the proposed aerodynamic and construction improvements, demanded by the Rechlin Testing Centre already for Bt 109K-4s, might have been applied there.
The tests were condueted on DB 605L-powered Bf 109K-4s, a suitable airscrew was sought for in particular. The results favoured a four-blade realization, which was to become standard (probably the VDM 9-12199).

Serial produetion did not materialize, ot course, and an alleged assignment of two Bf 109K-14s to II/JG 52 is not confirmed by its commander Maj. W. Batz. He does not remember any four-blade propelled Bf 109Ks coming to his unit. There is a theoretieal possibility that in the end-of-war mess, prototypes came to operational units, when a testing airfield was used by such a unit. But these craft would not have been the Bf 109K-14s but DB 605L-powered Bf l09K-4s! We can find similar stories in the history ot Me 262, Fw 190D and Ta 152 as well, but we need not go so far for an example. The already mentioned Bf I09K-4. W. Nr. 330112 prototype with an atypical MG 151/20 in the engine was finally assigned to 11./JG 3 and ended its career in a belly landing on January 30, 1945, after its engine was hit north ot Friedeberg. The craft had to be condemned after the landing. At the time it carried a "Yellow 4" marking. In this context a testimony by Maj. Julio Maimberg, a II/JG 53 officer is very interesting.
At the turn ot February and March 1945 he was visited by a Daimler-Benz employee.

After an obvious chat on aircraft topics, the employee said they had a Bf 109 in Malmsheim, that had all possible improvements "from engine to cockpit". So, it was the best Bt 109 they had. Meimberg, ot course, wanted to try such a maehine. After a short talk the Daimler-Benz employee "presented" the Bf 109 to Meimberg. Ofhr. Severin, Meimberg's wingman, was to fly the aircraft from Malmsheim. He took off for the flight with the Bf 109 on March 11, 1945 but on his way he crashed into a slope near Geislingen and died.
The Bf 109 had serial number 331446, i.e. it was a Bf I09K-4. It is highly probable that the craft was a Bf 109K-14-adapted one since the improvements were said to have involved the engine as well, whieh could have ment installation of a DB 605L. One of the Bf 109K-14s seems to have crashed near Geislingen then. The Bf 109K-14 description coneludes the list ot anticipated Bf 109K variants.
Subsequently the Bf 109 did not continue to develop as a classical fighter, because Me 262s and Ta 152C,Hs were chosen as frontline fighters. The original 1935 airframe had reached the peak of development.
Wmaker
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Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2002, 04:55:18 PM »
Wow, nice and interesting info :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2002, 05:53:31 PM »
Thanks WMaker ! :) Nice Read.

So did I read it right to say that even the "two" K14's were most likely prototypes?

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2002, 06:29:51 PM »
Yes Verm, I never sai dthey were production airplanes inmy other posts. Just that two saw action, prototypes or not. It is not sure they saw action though. I have read it in several different books but just like the Mk103 is could be from one source.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline DingHao2

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« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2002, 06:43:05 PM »
Ripsnort, I've been playing AH under various names (Speedy1, DocFalconer) since 1.04.  I figure that if this issue has been around a while, why hasn't anything been done to fix it?

Now perhaps the data I have on the armaments is incorrect, but my book does state that the G-10 made 429 mph with MW-50 injection.  The AH "G-10" makes 450 mph, but has a G-10 shape.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2002, 06:51:52 PM »
Because your book only has part of the data.  There were several  different engines used in the G10.  With one engine (I'm too lazy to get up and go to my bookcase to pull out the reference) the maximum speed was 429mph.  However the late model G10 used a different engine.  Its top speed was 450-452 mph.  This is the G10 we have in AH.

It doesn't need fixed, because it isn't broken.