Author Topic: Sunday's TOD hose Job for Allies  (Read 811 times)

Offline Strange

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Sunday's TOD hose Job for Allies
« on: September 30, 2002, 12:49:32 PM »
Okay..I'm not one for stirring the pot (not to mistaken with weed) but.. The more and more I think about it the more pissed I get about yesterday.

I'd have to say this was the most pathetic TOD I've been in... The selection of A/C  the older P-47 D11 and P-51B's against the luffwiners 190A8s, 109G10s and 262's.

Theres no way to compare these a/c when were flying older and slower a/c.  Someone needs to wake up and smell the folgers!! And get us evenly matched A/C. :mad:

Offline Kronos

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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2002, 12:57:59 PM »
Umm.... P47D11 turns better and is faster at alt than the other P47's.  P51b  is one of the fastest prop job aircraft in AH.

there were limited 262's from what I understand, and most squads in luftwaffe were 190a8's..... which are extremely heavy, slow and don't turn well.  109g10's are an even matchup between p51b's and P47d11's when both are flown well.

Offline bikekil

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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2002, 01:26:54 PM »
Strange,
you are right... planset was chosen to help LW (outnumbered and with objectives that are herder to acomplished). I'm sorry you had no fun, but if you look for other AAR's you will see that some of guys had it... i wish you will enjoy frame 3 with P51D and P-47D-30!

bikekil

Offline Flossy

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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2002, 01:28:49 PM »
Ooooohhhh, a whine!!!  Looks like I spoke too soon!  :D

The 262s were limited to no more than 5.....  :)
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Offline Strange

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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2002, 01:37:20 PM »
Kronos,
I know the D-11 turns better I fly it most of the time! But faster..no. D-30 has a 1/2 k climb better on it and is faster at alt.

Bike,
I know..hopefully we'll beable to better protect our big firend next week..it was like a cow slautter.. at the butcher shop yesterday. You'll bet the 63rd will be in those D-30's.

It's not a whine Flossy.. just plain facts :D

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2002, 02:18:04 PM »
Strange, I luv ya man.  But the D11 is 5-6 MPH faster than the the D30 or D25 at all altitudes.  Yes the D30 outclimbs the D11, a good thing.  The Pony-B and D11 outperform the 190A8 and the G10 (IMO) at the alts we expected top see them. Problem was, we were too slow, still climbing when we were bounced. We were unprepared.

Here is what we (as the allies) did wrong, or could have done better.  First, the Bombers should have taken off deeper inside England.  The Escorts should have rolled T+5 and flew 25-50 miles forward of the bombers (not all of the escorts, but a force able to fight well against the LW.  The escorts should have been 25 K, level, with 400 TAS by the time they crossed the half way point of the channel.  Under those conditions, we would have been ready for the LW and would have put a large dent in the LW forces by the time the bombers were feet wet.  We met the LW still climbing, 20K, and slow. They were above us and we were wayyy to close tot he bombers to stop an attack.  We would have needed to bounce them long before they got VFR on the bombers.
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Offline Tilt

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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2002, 03:38:04 PM »
Buffs have an effective limiting alt of 20 ish............ any plan that puts a split force at that alt earlier than needs be gives the LW even more time to gain alt in the area's they know you are coming to.............

Hence the route to the target is determined by the minimum time to reach alt (by a buff) and the direction you want to ingress from.

A cap was established to minimise LW alt over the target zone...........it went straight  there.............. and succeeded........

The LW split its defences under a cap with two  converging  bomber forces and got brought low...........you guys did great and as planned...... infact nearly exactly as planned...........

LW sacrificed their force to win the mid game gambit...........(bring down the 17's)

So many folk ignore the end game...........he who laughs last is the golden rule.............

As the lancs came in there were still 51's in high cap, 47's and 17's rtb'ing and basically one viable LW 262 still in action.

The RAF owned the skies over the Ruhr at that point and until the end of the frame............... we only had to hit one FH........................ we had time and eggs for 10 of them at ten different air fields............


just sayin (TM some one or other)
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Offline Kronos

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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2002, 04:05:35 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by strange :

I know the D-11 turns better I fly it most of the time! But faster..no. D-30 has a 1/2 k climb better on it and is faster at alt.


What ammo said.  Bud, I fly the D11 alot aswell... well not asmuch as I used to.  The reason the D30 outclimbs the the D11 so well is due to a slightly better engine, and more WEP power.  However, in level alt no wep, the heavier body of the D30 makes it slightly slower than the D11.  (also the D11 has the aerodynamics.)


Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2002, 05:11:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
Buffs have an effective limiting alt of 20 ish............ any plan that puts a split force at that alt earlier than needs be gives the LW even more time to gain alt in the area's they know you are coming to.............

Hence the route to the target is determined by the minimum time to reach alt (by a buff) and the direction you want to ingress from.

A cap was established to minimise LW alt over the target zone...........it went straight  there.............. and succeeded........

The LW split its defences under a cap with two  converging  bomber forces and got brought low...........you guys did great and as planned...... infact nearly exactly as planned...........

LW sacrificed their force to win the mid game gambit...........(bring down the 17's)

So many folk ignore the end game...........he who laughs last is the golden rule.............

As the lancs came in there were still 51's in high cap, 47's and 17's rtb'ing and basically one viable LW 262 still in action.

The RAF owned the skies over the Ruhr at that point and until the end of the frame............... we only had to hit one FH........................ we had time and eggs for 10 of them at ten different air fields............


just sayin (TM some one or other)


Even so, OK they are limited to 20K. If they take off deeper in the UK, they giev the escorts a chance to sweep ahead of them and do some damage. We might even have brought the LW force low...without the B17's or the LANC's  present to get hit.  we have a 2 hour frame right? We could use that time.  

While the lancs did the job they were supposed too, we didnt have to lose the B-17's. We could have mor effectively escorted them by screening out ahead of the bombers. This really depends upon how many escorts you have fopr your bombers. If you are limited on the number of Airframes you have,  it will be much harder to do successfuklly implement a screen.

IMO, sacrificing all those B-17's should not be counted torward a victory. Such attrition is not so good:)
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Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2002, 02:52:14 AM »
Umm as the LW CO for the frame - I find it kind of strange that a few of the RAF think they could have done even better!!  My butt is bruised. Leave my ego be!! :rolleyes:

Tilt has encapsulated it perfectly.  His report is correct in every way.

Our plan was to scout out the bombers and then concentrate our fighters against the buffs.  We never had any intention whatsoever to tangle with fighters.  We wanted to find the buffs early so that they would be low and not set.

 Our 262's had orders not to mix it up, but to stay high fast and alive.  They were our eyes and ears - we were not going to waste them trying to pick off a few escorts.  Because they were used as scouts and therefore split up across the map they were never going to be the sledgehammer to deal the killing blow.  They were barely part of the actual "fighting" equation.  That was to be the job of the A8's.  The final ploy for the 262's was to zoom through the escorts as the 190's arrived.  There was some hope that this would unsettle the escorts for long enough to let us get at the buffs.

The forward fighter defence effectively foiled a plan that was until then unfolding perfectly.   The P51's were higher faster and lighter than the 190's.  They kept us low and defensive.  They were magnificent.  When we finally hit the buffs we were low and had no E.  Check with the northern P47's how easy it was to drop onto the 190's as they came in.

We had to split into 2 groups to meet the B17's.  I had hoped they would come as a single group.  The bulk of our resources hit the southern group.  This group of B-17's were taken out.  We lost 95% of our fighters though due to the ferocity of the escort.  We had no reserve because they had been committed to the Northern group.  Because of the high attrition we were not able to reform a credible reserve in the target area as per the original plan.

We had only half the numbers we needed to hit the north group with and even worse our lads were escorted to their targets by sniping P51's.  We lost all of our North group defenders to the escorts and were still unable to take down more than half the buffs.

The tiny amount of defenders left (mostly damaged) were all on the ground refuelling when the Lancs arrived.   The single surviving jet was the only aircraft we had that could reach them.  It took a small toll of the retreating buffs.

Now - if I had just had about 15 more 109's standing in goal (dream on) we would have given you reason to be upset and introspective.  Face it - your leaders gave you a plan that was good, damn good.   The individual skill of the units and their CO's made it work.

Now for Pete's sake give some credit to the tenacity and skill of the defenders.  It diminishes their brilliant work for someone to come in here and complain about plane-sets just because they got shot down!  A lot of guys died out there Sunday.  In fact more than any TOD I can remember for a while.

It was a great TOD.  Again well done CM's, planners, flyers.   to you all  :D
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there is where the vultures gather together.

Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2002, 02:59:40 AM »
Oh yeah, and one last thing - If I could've done it I would have vulched the buffs on takeoff!!!!!!!!:D   TOD is for winning -  Bulletin Board is for chivalry  :cool: :p ;)
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

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Offline Tilt

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2002, 04:31:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dantoo
This group of B-17's were taken out.  We lost 95% of our fighters though due to the ferocity of the escort.  



This is the real difference between what we do and real life............


If your opponent is ready to lose 95% of his force to achieve his objective............(quite common outcome in TODs and sceanario's) then you have to assume that your forces will suffer like wise at the first point of contact. (when planning)......

Ranging escorts ahead of buffs is a luxury only afforded when buffs also have close escort.......... the ramifications of a 262 teasing the escort whilst the main attack force goes around and in the back door are too embarassing to contemplate.......

LW learnt this in the BoB...........WWII escorts can almost never prevent the 1st strike of an interceptor........ and if they are not close they dont stop the 2nd either......

We did not know how many 262's would be operational.........

I had feared they may be used to execute a series of initial high speed passes on the buffs....(even if they were not firing).....this would have put the escort in a quandry..........      any attempt to intercept had dubious possibilities of success whilst probably loosing alt.................. ignoring them meant that eventually the 262's would claim some victims............... eventually some escort would have to do something to limit 262 activity..........then the 190's would strike............

Intersting thought is...if you (LW) had known our game plan what would you have done differently?...........I suspect you would have held the 262's high over the North Sea for the incoming Lancs.

but s'posing you only knew of the B17 missions..........  :p
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Offline bikekil

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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2002, 04:42:13 AM »
Lol... from what i saw i must say that LW did very good. As i said it's not easy to defend against *strongest* forces...

I'm really impressed about LW discipline as well :) Scout who identified us didn't attacked but was trying to make us scared and disorganised. After that 190 showed up his great skills and discipline! LW

Offline Dantoo

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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2002, 04:53:46 AM »
Quote
I had feared they may be used to execute a series of initial high speed passes on the buffs....(even if they were not firing).....this would have put the escort in a quandry.......... any attempt to intercept had dubious possibilities of success whilst probably loosing alt.................. ignoring them meant that eventually the 262's would claim some victims............... eventually some escort would have to do something to limit 262 activity..........then the 190's would strike............


Yep that was the state of mind that I had hoped to get you to.  I was hoping for maybe one of 2 outcomes.  1. The escorts to gather closely to the buffs - thereby allowing our interceptors free passage to the engagement area 2. Discipline to fail and the presence of a 262 buzzing around to prove too much for the young 'uns and the escort to lose cohesion as they pursued it hopelessly around the arena.   Neither of these 2 outcomes were really achieved.   I'm sure that there was lots of chat about a "262 tailing the formation" at the time though :D

Quote
Intersting thought is...if you (LW) had known our game plan what would you have done differently?...........I suspect you would have held the 262's high over the North Sea for the incoming Lancs.


If I had known the full game plan I wouldn't have needed scouts so how I would have used the 262's is really a dubious hypothetical.  The real problem in the planning for both sides is that we didn't have sufficient time to get ourselves comfortable before we clashed.  Mind you,  I wanted to get to you as early as possible so that you weren't set. ;)

If we had started from much further apart I believe that I could have dealt with the problem of a multiple headed strike much more efficiently.  I would not have split my forces at all.   I would have formed up in one large airfleet and hit each force in turn.  As it was I did not have time to do that.

Also - I was not at all willing or planning to take such heavy losses.  These were inflicted upon us by the escort without any thought for our feelings in the matter :D  

Dantoo
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

Matthew 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there is where the vultures gather together.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2002, 03:56:27 PM »
a 56th FG guy complaining he got the p-47D11 ?! :eek:

the jug out classes the 190A8 in every possible way, and but quite a margin when over 20k.

I'm still waiting to get one of these for a frame or two. no luck so far.

for the allied for a great plan and dicipline.
LW  for the brave effort and great work on that SW B17 group.

Bozon
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