Author Topic: Wep and cooling....... (Read 3109 times)

Karnak · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2002, 10:10:12 PM »

Hazed,

Am I not an Allied guy?

(Or at least seen as one?)

Staga · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2002, 10:18:22 PM »

Sho-cho Karnak
27th Sentai, 3rd Chutai

Fancy · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2002, 12:31:12 AM »

Engine thermodynamics isn't a simple thing. While I understand your point, you're assuming that both the P51 and the Dora have the same radiating ability/rate which they obviously don't. Now I don't know which one, historically, should cool faster, but simply this added variable ruins the logic of the question. Not to mention that not all engines run at the same temperature when they are running "normally".

My guess is that engine cooling rates are not really modelled in AH realistically (I for one don't care--we could drown ourselves in minutiae if we wanted to) but that they use the aforementioned 1:2 ratio. However even if engine cooling in AH was based on RL that does NOT mean that any one plane and any other should cool at the same rate as you are falsly assuming.

Staga · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2002, 06:41:24 AM »

FW's are porked, otherwise they would be too über

hazed- · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2002, 08:30:51 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fancy
Engine thermodynamics isn't a simple thing. While I understand your point, you're assuming that both the P51 and the Dora have the same radiating ability/rate which they obviously don't. Now I don't know which one, historically, should cool faster, but simply this added variable ruins the logic of the question. Not to mention that not all engines run at the same temperature when they are running "normally".

My guess is that engine cooling rates are not really modelled in AH realistically (I for one don't care--we could drown ourselves in minutiae if we wanted to) but that they use the aforementioned 1:2 ratio. However even if engine cooling in AH was based on RL that does NOT mean that any one plane and any other should cool at the same rate as you are falsly assuming.

er fancy its quite clear to me you havent read the thread at all.Otherwise you would have seen this:

Quote

Originally posted by Hazed
Its an unlikely scenario for a chase or whatever to last that long but where is the overall advantage for the 190? seems to me the 190 should cool down in 10 minutes from maximum engine temp.
After all the gauge is the same temp.We could make it slightly longer if the 190d9 was indeed poor at cooling down historically, Id have no problem with that but should it really be 2x the length of time?

so you can see Im quite willing to accept longer cooling for the dora and other 190s(older 190s did have cooling problems but the dora is an inline engine and is not as bad as the older radial aircooled 190s)What im not happy with is the cooling being 2x as long when it wouldnt be that way in real life.

consider this, the 190s are already muted in the roll to avoid warping, and as such are a LOT slower in the roll than they really were.Other aircraft have not been reduced in roll in proportion to this and as such the 190s have lost a lot of their greatest asset.This i can accept but i do think its wrong really.
Then we come to the wep system where the LW planes really did have much more boost and cooling ability with GM1 and MW50 and they had substantially more of it than most allied planes.In AH we have got a 'representation' of this by having the 10 min wep instead of 5 min BUT instead of having the same cooling time HTC has decided to DOUBLE it.So in fact negating the advantage considerably.
Then we have certain reports about the aircraft like the reports done by captain brown (RAF pilot no less) that dont seem to match up with the AH 190s.
heres a report from Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm for instance:

'all our dora 9's were fitted with the jumo 213A engine which ,with water methanol injection, developed 2,240hp.As an air superiority fighter and interceptor fighter the Fw190d9 handled better than the fw190a; it was faster and had superior rate of climb.During dogfights at altitudes of between 3000m(10,000ft) and 7,500m (24,000ft), usual when engaging the russians, I found that i could pull the fw190d9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage.In the Fw190a i had flown previously, during dogfights i had often to reduce to minimum flying speed in the turn.In the decent the dora-9 picked up speed much more quickly than the fw190a; in the dive it could leave the russian yak-3 and yak-9 fighters standing'

now if you've flown the dora you would know it loses a lot of speed in a tight turn just the same as the 190a's we have and you'd also know that the yaks do not get left behind at all in AH in dives.
I can accept 1 or 2 of these things not happening and im quite happywith the dora but it does seem to me theres rather too much missing from them.The cooling is the straw that breaks the camels back for me.I've lived with it and just try to ignore things like the report above because it just annoys.I cant prove one way or another if the flight model is wrong but i CAN look into this cooling issue and CLEARLY demonstrate its wrong.That is UNLESS someone out there can prove the dora would take 2X as long to cool as a p51.Its quite simple.If you cant then AH is WRONG and should be changed.Its only fair to do so.

Im sure HTC gets fed up with the constant 190 talk but I honestly think they have had severe restrictions imposed by their present set up(ie reduced roll and excessive cooling times).I can accept the roll and im not demanding anything concerning that but I would like something said/explained about the cooling.

Wilbus · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2002, 09:12:11 AM »

Agree with everything Hazed says. And without trying to brake the discussion away from the cooling issue, I think as for acceleration, and E-retation it's something that I think, after testing etc, that is wrong in the whole FW airframe in AH. The cooling is quite obvious though.

straffo · « **Reply #21 on:** October 05, 2002, 11:21:54 AM »

I don't really thing you want a realistic engine modelling in AH ...

Because in this case HT will have no other choice than model reliabilty too ... and we will see lot of LW pilots in chute after having broke their engine ...

Dowding · « **Reply #22 on:** October 05, 2002, 11:26:26 AM »

Hazed - explain again to me why the 190 should cool down at the same rate at the P-51 or any other plane, from any particular temperature.

Wilbus · « **Reply #23 on:** October 05, 2002, 11:37:47 AM »

Dowdwing, compare, say a P51D with a 190 D. The 190 has got 10 minutes of wep, this is too simulate their better WEP in R/L thanks to different coolinng systems.

The P51D has 5 minutes. Both engines get as warm when looking at the temperature gauge. Let's say 120 degrees (don't know how much they go to). Say both reach 120 degrees. Why would it take longer for the Dora engine to cool down to 100 degrees from 120 then it would take a P51 D to cool down to 100 degrees from 120???

Beats the hell out of me.

Wilbus · « **Reply #24 on:** October 05, 2002, 11:39:12 AM »

Straffo, I don't think realistic engine modelling etc is even considered by HTC. However, different WEP's should be, not just have one run longer then take twice the time to cool down from the same temperature.

straffo · « **Reply #25 on:** October 05, 2002, 11:50:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Straffo, I don't think realistic engine modelling etc is even considered by HTC. However, different WEP's should be, not just have one run longer then take twice the time to cool down from the same temperature.

I agree Wilbus I just wanted to point (quite badly I admit) that if you want to have a real modeling of something without any simplification you have to model ALL the same way ...

In a word how can we have a real wep modeling without a real engine management ?
and if we have a real engine management you sould model reliability ...

Otherwise it's a "batardised" model

dunno if I'm clearer but at least I tried

Wilbus · « **Reply #26 on:** October 05, 2002, 12:06:24 PM »

Well, nothing is really realistic modelled so...

Well, what we want it the WEP to be more like R/L, IE, the 190's could run with MW50 for 10 minutes and 5 minutes cool down. Don't think our Dora has got MW50 though but teh Ta152 does. But as it is now they are run 10 minutes and cool down 18. That's a penealty cool down for 13 minutes.

hazed- · « **Reply #27 on:** October 05, 2002, 12:27:18 PM »

straffo this isnt a request for true engine management.The way wep works is a fine compromise ie all aircraft with wep have roughly 5 minutes before they reach critical temprature of 130 degrees or what ever then they take 9 minutes to cool down and away you go again.
HTC decided it was fair, seeing as how LW 190s had twice the amount of fuel for their boost systems as the average Allied plane, that the 190 could have 10 minutes boost.

BUT they then decided for some inexplicable reason to double the length of time it takes for it to cool down.THUS making the fact that 190s had more fuel for boost pointless in some respects.

The problem i have with it is the 18 minutes it takes for my 190d9 to cool down when all other planes take 10 mins.

All the aircraft that have wep have VARIOUS cooling systems.The 190A's and F's I ACCEPT had fairly poor cooling and I could understand why they had a longer wait to cool (2x as long is a bit much though) BUT the 190D9 had a TOTALLY different engine with Liquid cooling system and it did not have heat problems.
So on this basis it has the SAME as all other wep aircraft for the purposes of AH (all aircraft are given same cooling time in AH)

So basically the 190D9 in WW2 had 2x or MORE wep capability than your average Allied aircraft and had a similar cooling capability.Therefor they should have the ten min wep but with 10 min cooling time the same as all the rest of the aircraft.

IF however HTC is to give aircraft their real supply of boost fuel you would STILL have 40 minutes of MW50 on the 190-d9 that historically could be run for about 10 minutes before it had to be shut down again and allowed to cool.

Now personally i dont know what type of fuel other aircraft used like the p51d but from what id gathered it isnt anywhere near 40 minutes supply.SO if we even had the real supply of boost fuel for all aircraft the dora would still come out on top(or near it).This was the whole reason HTC gave them 10 mins boost instead of 5.

Now dowding YOU explain to ME why the dora should then take 2x the length of time to cool when it NEVER got 2x as hot?

If you find some charts to prove the dora had a POOR cooling system compared to all the other aircraft in AH with wep then I'd accept a penalty in the cooling time.I have NO PROBLEM with that BUT I'd like to know why or on what basis it was decided it is 2x the length of time of any other engine. If say in real life the p51 took 20 mins to cool down and the dora had a poor system and took 30 minutes then it should take 1.5X the length of time right? (these are pure conjecture as i really am having trouble finding sources on the actual times the real aircraft took)

Im really glad you came dowding as i consider you quite the allied flyer and i REALLY would like to know what your explanation for it is.Im not trying to catch anyone out or flame or whatever those morons call it this week

, i just want to know whats going on.

I used to think that the 190s cooled down a bit slower than others because they did have notoriously bad cooling systems on the early models and pretty poor ones for later types too but until i tested it the other day I'd always asumed it was just a few minutes longer, NOT 2X the time.

The Dora has no such problems mentioned about overheating from reading all my books so i'd like to know why its modeled the same as the older A and F series?.

(btw i havent tested the 109s yet but i suspect the same method has been used for those? I do seem to remember the 109F4 cools very quickly though so im not sure it has.)

Wilbus · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2002, 12:45:44 PM »

Actually hazed,I think all 190 A's and the F in AH cool down quite much faster then the Dora and Ta152, or if it's only the 109's that cool down faster which makes this even more weird. Remember first flying the Dora and Ta152 when they got in the game, hit me right away that they took long to cool.

straffo · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2002, 04:17:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
Well, nothing is really realistic modelled so...

no