Author Topic: Wep and cooling....... (Read 3117 times)

Naudet · « **Reply #60 on:** October 12, 2002, 11:36:12 AM »

Nice, now we know the code, but i still have no idea how it works.

Btw here are the the colling data for the JUMO213 A.
Sorry no idea how fast it heated up or cooled down.

Oiltemperatur: maximum of 130°C

Coolant: 50% pure Water + 50% Glykol, the coolant system works with temperatures up to 100°C, it uses pressure so the coolant will not vaporize

Coolant-Exhaust-Temperature (not sure about the translation, but engine manual reads "Kühlstoff-Austritts-Temperatur)
at all altitudes up to 100°C
at start and rolling for short periods 120°C

Also the handbook states that usually there is a radiator flaps automatic control, that keeps the coolant-exhaust-temperature at 100°C, for the start this system is deactivated and so the coolant temperature can rise up to 120°C.

The the max allowed coolant temperature was 120°C.

This informations come from a handbook for the JUMO213A from July 1944.

HoHun · « **Reply #61 on:** October 12, 2002, 12:46:17 PM »

Hi Hitech,

>If you realy wish I can change the gauge to read higher on the fw so it looks like it's cooling the same rate as the p51. But in the end all that would change is the lable on the dash board.

Actually, the problem seems to be that the Aces High Fw 190D-9's cooling behaviour does not match reality.

Whatever the temperatures, the real Fw 190D-9 could apply WEP for 10 min and cool down to the intial temperature in 5 min.

Accordingly, in terms of the Aces High code you posted, WepCoolPerSec has to be twice as high as WepHeatPerSec.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

hazed- · « **Reply #62 on:** October 12, 2002, 06:17:44 PM »

thanks for the reply hitech.

so the lw 190 runs 2x as hot in real life? sorry but that's what i gathered from the reply.In AH the tempreture on the dial reads the same as a p51 would regardless of a dference in temprature?
im a bit confused but i guess thats the answer i have to take...

AH models a set rate of cooling, ie for every minute of wep the cooling takes 2 mins but for every degree that the 'individual' aircraft has as its maximum adds on cooling time (ie dora is 2x as hot therefore now takes 2x as long to cool)?

for instance the hurricane has 5 minutes wep but heats to 150% the engine temprature of a p51d?.So if p51d max temp peaks at 130 degrees, the hurricane in the same amount of 'time' ends up at a much higher level (around 192.25 degrees?) and therefore takes 150% longer to cool down again and the Dora would be the same temprature after 5 minutes but would, over the next 5 minutes continue to rise to 260 degrees?

ok im sorry but i didnt realise the 190d9 was so much different from other engines.I am guilty of assuming too much i guess.

EDIT

the figures above concerning maximum running temprrature of 190 is 130 degrees? what or how do they tie in? Im really surprised by this.

john9001 · « **Reply #63 on:** October 12, 2002, 09:13:38 PM »

""""ok im sorry but i didnt realise the 190d9 was so much different from other engines"""""

of course it's different , thats why it's so UBER, the UBER LW would have won the war if not for the hitler guy and that fat man whatshisname

44UBERMAG

i really want to find some small thing to whine about , but i can't , i'm too easly pleased.

Duedel · « **Reply #64 on:** October 13, 2002, 04:06:29 AM »

OK here we go:

Engines.WepTempPer += Plane->UserSim->TimeSlice * Plane->PlaneModel.PlaneParams.WepHea tPerSec;
Engines.WepTempPer -= Plane->UserSim->TimeSlice * Plane->PlaneModel.PlaneParams.WepCoo lPerSec;

Every plane seams to have three parameters:
WepHeatPerSec, WepCoolPerSec and MaxWepTime

If i read this thread correct and if my C knowledge is still there (this is doubtable) the parameter WepCoolPerSec is 0.55 (1/1.8 for 10 mins and 18mins) as high as WepHeatPerSec for the dora - of course i could be totally wrong here. Furtheron the parameter MaxWepTime is 2 times higher for the dora than the P51.

And ... there's no real simulation of GM1 or MW1, just these 3 parameters.

I guess thats what the codes say to us.

BTW really interesting would be to see all the values for each property of the Plane->PlaneModel.PlaneParams object for each plane, HiTech?

Wilbus · « **Reply #65 on:** October 13, 2002, 04:53:50 AM »

Quote

ok im sorry but i didnt realise the 190d9 was so much different from other engines.I am guilty of assuming too much i guess.

It wasn't.

HoHun · « **Reply #66 on:** October 13, 2002, 05:38:51 AM »

Hi Duedel,

>Furtheron the parameter MaxWepTime is 2 times higher for the dora than the P51.

Actually, the MaxWepTime parameter defines how much WEP you can accumulate during the entire flight, not for how long you can leave the engine at WEP without interruption.

For the Fw 190D-9, this should be determined by the size of the MW50 tank, which was 115 L. The Fw 190D-9 consumed 150 L/h of MW50 at 2100 HP so that MaxWepTime should be equivalent to 46 min (or maybe a bit more at just 1900 HP, which the Aces High Dora's maximum power seems to be).

The WEP "burst" length without interruptions is implied in WepHeatPerSec, which for the D-9 is equivalent to 0.17 %/s, while WepCoolPerSec is 0.09 %/s. For the P-51, both values are 0.33 %/s, and that's what the D-9's WepCoolPerSec should be, too.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

SFRT - Frenchy · « **Reply #67 on:** October 13, 2002, 08:19:44 AM »

So currently, cooling down the engine has nothing to do with :

- the speed you fly at (airflow)
- the altitude you fly at (temperature)
- your power setting

good news for me, I can dive from 30k, rip my wings and still not to worry about shock-cooling the engine:D

GScholz · « **Reply #68 on:** October 13, 2002, 03:30:29 PM »

I just think HTC has sucker-punched LW planes in this game. With exception of the 109G10 I don't recognize any of the characteristics I expected from them. All 190 fighter subtypes had MW50 or GM1, including the Dora. Why is that the only pony in the game is the D which only flew in 1945 (and has no perk-cost), while the latest 109 variant the G started its service life in 1942 (granted with late-war upgrades like the G10)? I would like to see the 109K, which was favored by the German aces, much more than I'd like to see the Ta-152H (why is it even in the game??? Only 10 flew before the war ended, and none saw action). The 190's are handicapped ... WHY? I don't see the ponies having any, nor the La7's, Spits or the Niki's which now reign dominant in the MA. If HTC do not want to model boost realistically, at least give the LW planes the superior hp boost they had (the late-war DB605 engine had typically approx. 1,500 hp dry, but 2000 hp with WEP! You would feel 500 extra horses!).

Just my two cents ...

Nashwan · « **Reply #69 on:** October 13, 2002, 04:00:13 PM »

Quote

If HTC do not want to model boost realistically, at least give the LW planes the superior hp boost they had (the late-war DB605 engine had typically approx. 1,500 hp dry, but 2000 hp with WEP! You would feel 500 extra horses!).

By mid 44, the RAF and USAAF were using 150 octane, and running much higher boost than is present in AH.

The Spit IX in AH has around 1600 HP, with 150 octane fuel that was 2000hp. Same for the P-51.

The Spit IX in AH does 320 mph at sea level. A typical 1944 Spit IX would be doing 360mph at sea level.

The AH Mustang does 365mph at sea level, the Spit XIV just under 360 mph. These are the figures for a real Spit XIV and P-51 from 1944:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14+25lbs.jpg
(Chart from MW's Spit site at http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html )

hazed- · « **Reply #70 on:** October 13, 2002, 04:33:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nashwan

By mid 44, the RAF and USAAF were using 150 octane, and running much higher boost than is present in AH.

The Spit IX in AH has around 1600 HP, with 150 octane fuel that was 2000hp. Same for the P-51.

The Spit IX in AH does 320 mph at sea level. A typical 1944 Spit IX would be doing 360mph at sea level.

The AH Mustang does 365mph at sea level, the Spit XIV just under 360 mph. These are the figures for a real Spit XIV and P-51 from 1944:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14+25lbs.jpg
(Chart from MW's Spit site at http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html )

nash let me get this straight....the p51d is running in AH modelled with the highest octane fuel but all RAF planes apart from spt14 arent?

Well i did my best to point out the discrepency with the dora i think you'll agree its pretty obvious that its been hamstrung but it appears HT is quite happy with it that way , he certainly doesnt imply any intent to change anything.I think yet again it points me to a simple conclusion and i think you know what that is.

I giveing up trying to change things in this game, and to be honest i think these models for LW are really not modeled with any positive atitude toward them.Seems to me anything that points to the USAAF planes having better performance is included while anything that suggests LW improvements is ignored or modeled 'half-heartedly'.

presently we have 190s with extremely slow cooling, questionable climbs above 25k (even above 22k).Jabo planes with no extra armour modeled, poor loadout options(there were many many loadouts). GM1 and MW5(some 40 odd minutes in real life WITH extra cooling ability) pretty much turned into an extra 5 mins of boost with double the tempreture they actually would have got to.EXTREMELY poor acceleration(see other thread on 190a5 tests). poor zoom performance(none perform anything like capt browns descriptions), and shoot me if you have to but i feel the 20mm are less than perfect.

whiner? yeah maybe but its something that if you fly LW planes a lot , you will surely notice.Those that dont agree about it often hardly fly them.
dont know why we bother trying to test it all.

Nashwan · « **Reply #71 on:** October 13, 2002, 04:54:56 PM »

Quote

nash let me get this straight....the p51d is running in AH modelled with the highest octane fuel but all RAF planes apart from spt14 arent?

No, none of the allied planes are using 150 octane.

150 octane filled the same function for the western allies that MW50 did for the Germans; it allowed higher boost pressures without detonation.

It was produced by Britain in large quantities, around 30 - 40,000 tons per month throughout 1944. It was used by ADGB (formerly Fighter Command) from Spring 44, and by the fighters of the US 8th AF from summer 44. 2nd TAF used it from Jan 45.

It boosted the deck speed of Spits and Mustangs by nearly 40 mph. It isn't modelled in AH at all.

john9001 · « **Reply #72 on:** October 13, 2002, 04:58:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Why is that the only pony in the game is the D which only flew in 1945 (and has no perk-cost),

The P-51D began to arrive in Europe in quantity in March of 1944. The 55th Fighter Group was the first to get the P-51D, and AH has the P-51B, but you wouldn't know that because you only fly LW.

44MAG

GScholz · « **Reply #73 on:** October 13, 2002, 05:06:47 PM »

Then why is the P-51 faster than the 190? It sure was'nt in R/L.

GScholz · « **Reply #74 on:** October 13, 2002, 05:18:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by john9001

The P-51D began to arrive in Europe in quantity in March of 1944. The 55th Fighter Group was the first to get the P-51D, and AH has the P-51B, but you wouldn't know that because you only fly LW.

44MAG

My bad, but I don't fly LW exclusively and I'm not in a LW sqd.

Do YOU actually think HTC has got LW planes right? Or are you just defending your beloved pony?