When Is it Ackstarring?

[Downtown]

This morning I upped from A1 in a Jug.  I started heading south east cause there were markers in one of the southeast sectors.  As I am passing toward A5 I see a low dot at A2, I was about 15K.

I check and there are no friendly markers in that sector so I turn north to investigate.

I start diving toward A2 cutting back on power to stay out of compression.

There orbiting A2 is a low B-17.

I did a dive must have been his 10 o'clock and see a fuel leak start.  Meanwhile his gunner get my oil, fuel, and a pilot wound.

I did a high speed attack from 10 o'clock IAS over 400 and got that.

We were both low and I decided since I was close to the field to cut power and get down fast.

The bomber turned after me and his gunner got me as I was crippled and blacked out.

This aggrivated me, so I upped in an F4U 1C.

As soon as I spawned I get Ping Ping Ping and another pilot wound.  Cut engine braked and re-spawned.  This time I get up and see another low dot heading toward the field.  As I up there is ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping at my six.  I check back and the B-17 is chasing me.  As I close on the other low con I see it is a goon which I dispatch and start to turn back toward A2.

I look back and the buff is turning with me.

I get on the buffs six and feed him quite a bit of 20MM.  Eventually he goes in.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't don't like bombers attacking fighters.
What is the point of having bombers, why not just have an all fighter game?  With the advantages that HTC has given bombers it is damn hard to attack them with fighters.

My first attack was a standard High speed pass against a bombers poorest defensive angle and I got pinged hard.  The .50s on a pony, hawg d, and P-47 will only hit at 1100 yards max, with almost no power, yet the .50s on bomber will reach from 1800 to 1400 yards with quite a bit of effect.

This individual who was attacking me with his B-17 said that I had made poor attacks.  My first was the 400+ IAS attack where I got his fuel.  The second I saw a lot of black and white smoke from his bombers.

The first attack was a classic attack, the 2nd was a attack of self defense and despiration cause I was low and just upped.

One thing I have been trying to do is loiter at about 1400 yards from bombers to get them to use up all their ammo so I can attack.

I will be above a bomber and 1400 yards to the left or rights.  I quite often get pilot wounds, or engine damage trying to do this.

IMHO B-26s are worse than B-17s cause you can fly and fight in those.  I have been on the Rec.aviation.military news group and all the U.S. WWII vets there say that the B-26 was the most dangerous plane to fly and turn.  I know that Hap Arnold did a demonstration in a B-26 that was pretty impressive, but he wasn't flying them as fighters or against fighters.

What is aggrivating me is that bombers are too effective against fighters, I could see it if lone bombers  were getting lone kills agains lone fighters, but bombers are racking up 6, 8, 10, 11, and 14 kill streaks against fighters.  Many people, and I admit that I have seen knights doing this, are upping in bombers and using them as ack wagons.

I agree anyone doing a low climbing six attack against a b-17 or b-26 deserves what he gets, but I also feel that a b-17 low and turning with a fighter should stall and auger.  The Bombers turn to well compared to what they could do in real life, the guns range out to well and are to effective at too great a range.

Something has to change to stop the trend of people using bombers to attack fighters, which IMHO is becomming all too common for me.

The other issue I ask is if all these fighters (at least the LW figthers) were used to intercept allied bombers between 25 to 30K.  Why aren't these planes able to turn at altitude with bombers.  I have read quite a bit about what was going on over the air in Germany, and LW fighters shot down a lot of bombers.  As a matter of fact they shot down more bombers than the bombers shot down fighters.  In AH the Bombers are shooting down more fighters than the fighters are shooting down bombers.

Maybe this individual wasn't ackstarring, but he was flying a F-17 not a B-17 and I have a problem with that.

Bomber=Bomber not Fighter!



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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[leonid]

I don't like it either, but if it's possible then how can you stop it?  This is the MA where anything goes, really.  Sad to say, but true.  I had a Rook in a B-26 chase me, taking my engine out, then shoot down another knight fighter while we were engaged with a F4U.  He was not flying the B-26 with the intent of bombing at all.  Not very historically realistic, but within the B-26's capabilities.

The MA is not about historical realism, but more about the pure performance realism of the various aircraft.  Hopefully, the Scenario Events will be a relief from all this.

[Gadfly]

It is ackstarring when otto is doing the shooting.  You just got outfought.

Lizking

(Why would you takeoff from a feld with a B-17 orbiting it?)

[Dnil]

Just curious, what squad was the guy in?

I just notice a couple squads seem to enjoy it more then others.  I hate it to, but dont think it can be stopped.  At least its not the computer firing the guns.  

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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[Fishu]

Id figure that B-17 would suffer damages from banking too hard, specially with the bombs.
It is durable and easily flown bomber, but it does still have structucal limits for banking the plane for example.
It is not a fighter, it was not built to turn on a dime.. but carry heavy load to its target.
Here it turns pretty well without any damages..
I think that B-26 is too easy to fly as a 'fighter'.

[juzz]

 

I did a dive must have been his 10 o'clock and see a fuel leak start. Meanwhile his gunner get my oil, fuel, and a pilot wound.

Roughly level, 10 o'clock attack?

Hmmm, lets see...

Mid-upper turret
Ball turret
Left waist gun
Chin turret

Are the positions that will all fire at you.

It's not suprising your plane ends up a swiss cheese with seven guns firing at it.

[Renfield]

Ackstarring is exactly what you described Downtown - textbook case.

It is sad to see the guys using bombers as mobile ack platforms.

[Downtown]

Wasn't anything roughly level about it, I came down from 15,000 ft to less than 1000 ft, My angel of attack was at least 30 degrees.  Should have been top and a waist.  I believe he got my engine, fuel and pilot as I extended still going +350 away from him.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Downtown]

Also to say, "I was out fought" then you are saying it is okay for bombers to manuver with and out gun fighters?  From what I have read Adolf Hitler was very aggrivated by the U.S. 8th and Bomber Command bombing Germany around the clock.  He pulled the LW back from France into Germany to deal with the bomber threat.  At this point the focus of the German fighter corp was to intercept and destroy bombers. These planes would climb above the bombers and dive through them, making several attacking passes.  Through tighly packed formations of bombers.

In AH it is difficult to get most fighters to climb to 30K.  Onces there their manuverability is hampered.  If you have advanced warning you can get up to that altitude, but a bomber only has to make a slight turn to completely ruin your solution, you can't manuver to correct because you can't manuver at 30K like a buff can.

Below 30K bombers can manuver like fighters.

At very low altitudes bombers can manuver better than bombers.

When I was turning my F4U 1C I used two extentions of down flap (30%) to improve my turn.  A B-17 would have to turn vertical to the ground to turn with and F4U.  The Slide slip should cause a B-17 to fall off on a wing and auger in a situation like that.  Yet he continued to turn (Level turn) with my F4U.  This is a B-17 think about the manuvers you have seen a B-26 do in the Main.

I really feel that bombers have to much of an advantage.  I just want the playing field leveled.  Leave em the 1400 to 1800 yard guns and bring the manuverability closer to realistic parameters, or leave the manuverability and give em guns like we have.

Or, a fair decrease in manuverability and firepower.

Something so that bomber pilots know that they shouldn't be attacking fighters.

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Dago]

The term Ackstarring I feel has pretty well been accepted to mean using a bomber in a defensive roll for base defense.

It has no basis in historical fact.  Nobody ever took a bomber off in the face of enemy fighter attack so they could use the guns to defend the field.

While reluctant at first, I decided to accept the idea that using a bombers guns in an offensive roll during attacks on an enemy base.  There was evidence of bombers doing this in real life.   BUT NOT FOR BASE DEFENSE.

Ackstarring, as I described it, is a pathetic tactic in my opinion, and in the opinion of most of those I have discussed it with.  Those guilty of doing it lose the respect of other players, and they have a negative impact on the game.

Dago



[This message has been edited by Dago (edited 07-15-2000).]

[juzz]

 

Wasn't anything roughly level about it, I came down from 15,000 ft to less than 1000 ft, My angel of attack was at least 30 degrees. Should have been top and a waist.

Correct. Three guns on the way in...

 

I believe he got my engine, fuel and pilot as I extended still going +350 away from him.

So now you're level or lower than the B-17G at 1000ft, extending at its 4 o'clock.

Mid-upper turret, if level.
Ball turret
Right waist gun
Tail turret

Will all fire at you.

Five to seven guns.

[Gadfly]

I was making a JOKE, Downtown, a joke!  You flew WB, you should have gotten it.

Lizking

[Maxopti1]

I don't understand, because you are convinced that attack and shoot down a B17, he must be easy.  

Do you excuse, but, every so often, do you read the books of history?  

For understand thing could do a B17, you read thing happened during the attack to Schweinfurt.  

But, particularly, you read attentively how many German fighter the B17 succeeded to shoot down and/or damage.  

The B17 No.383 of the 332° Bs, 94° BG, has reentered from the single one mission with 2 Me109, 2FW190 shoot down and a third, ME109 damaged, the No. 301, got the same result.

Thing could do you think that attack a B17 with a single fighter, it is an intelligent thing, I am not able to understand it.

The suggestion of disable the guns al low altitude, doesn't have any logical or Historical comparison.  
Like in all the airplanes, Guns have a sure, this could be removed from the gunner, it is to earth that in flight, to his discretion.
It is already little logical that, don't work guns before the take-off.

The B17 is one of the more strong airplanes that they have stayed built, he is able to tolerate damages that would reduce anybody else bombardier in crumbs.

   
   

He is, also with his limits, heavily armed, and the position of the his arms is a work of art.

   

He is for a long time, considered, one of the easier airplanes to pilot and is particularly agile in relationship to his dimensions.

In poor words he is for the enemies, an ugly beast.  

Really the greater damages, in terms of casualties of B17, he did the anti-aircraft and not the fighter.

   

For strike a B17 effectively, different types of attack exist, but nobody of them is devoid of risks.

I love the my B17, down the paws !!  

   

Max

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When you are flown, there is an only certainty:
In a way or in the other, to earth you will return.

[This message has been edited by Maxopti1 (edited 07-15-2000).]

[Hangtime]

The Buffs are part of the sim..

As has been pointed out, the buff decending on an enemy field he's just attacked is legit; as is defending his goon driver.

Yah can't have a big platform with guns poking outta it in every direction in the MA and not expect some desperate character decide that he's gonna up it for defensive purposes at a base.. especially when that bases fighter hangers are rubble.

They are dangerous, to be sure. Yep; tangoing with one is a very risky buisness indeed... else the buff would never survive to reach a target to bomb. Taking this platform and flying it agressivly; putting the fighter pilot on the defensive is often the best option for the buffs survival.

Always a shock for the fighter pilot..  

But they CAN be killed. They are easily overwhelmed by multiple attacts from opposite sides. Hi-lo attacks can fox the gunner as he hops from position to position. Careful gunnery on the fighter pilots part can down a buff quite quickly if the fire is concentrated on the wing or tail.

My advice... grit yer teeth and kill the bastid. Use your strengths and his weaknesses and don't waste yourself by allowing him to force u defensive. Upping from a field capped by buffs is no less dangerous and foolish than it is upping from a field capped by fighters. If the buff CAN kill you, he probably WILL. Don't let that happen.. get the advantage; THEN attack.

Hang

[AKDejaVu]

 

The B17 No.383 of the 332° Bs, 94° BG, has reentered from the single one mission with 2 Me109, 2FW190 shoot down and a third, ME109 damaged, the No. 301, got the same result.

I don't like things like this being used to support the lethality of the buffs in the AH arena.  The reason you know this tail number and data on this sortie is because this was EXTREMELY unusual.  In AH this is a typical buff sortie.

AKDejaVu