Author Topic: Il2 Durability  (Read 1115 times)

Offline ra

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Il2 Durability
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2002, 04:45:50 PM »
Damage modelling in a sim must be an extremely complicated thing to do. so any sim is going to use shortcuts.  There's just no way to model all of the variables.  

That said, anyone who thinks the Il-2 is a flying tank must not know the history of the plane.  It was damn near a suicide ride, a huge percentage of them were shot down in combat, either by enemy aircraft or by ground fire.  The armored engine and cockpit were meant to reduce the odds of a lucky shot from small arms ground fire, and for that the armor worked fine.   But in the end it was just an airplane.  It didn't like bullets any more than any other plane.  The stories from LW pilots reporting how hard they were to shoot down must be taken into context.  Until the Il-2 came along, the LW on the eastern front had hardly ever encountered any enemy aircraft with armor or self-sealing fuel tanks, so in comparison the Il-2 must have seemed much tougher than what they were used to.

ra

Offline Samm

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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2002, 05:31:28 PM »
I would like to see plane armor modeled at least to the complexity of the current gv armor model .

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2002, 05:41:24 PM »
I think Ra makes a good point.   There were around 40,000 IL-2's built....very few of them survived the war.

J_A_B

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2002, 05:56:06 PM »
It should also be pointed out here that AH is pitting a mid-1942 plane against a very late-1944 (December) GV. From the Soviet Union Factbook page on the Il-2:

Quote
The original Il-2 was a single-seater. The forward fuselage around the engine and cockpit was built with 700 kilograms (1,543 pounds) of steel ranging from 5 to 12 millimeters (a fifth to half inch) thick. The engine radiators were placed behind the engine in the armored body, while the air intakes were placed on top of the nose. K-4 armor glass was used in the cockpit, with thicknesses from 55 to 65 millimeters (2.2 to 2.6 inches).

The Il-2 was armed with two ShKAS 7.62 millimeter machine guns and two ShVAK 20 millimeter cannons; rails for eight 82 millimeter RS-82 rockets, making it one of the first attack aircraft to carry rockets; and a bombload of 400 kilograms. There were two small bomb bays in each wing inboard of the landing gear, and there were external racks under the wings as well. Level speed was 470 KPH (300 MPH), and operating altitude was 2,000 meters (6,600 feet).

        *        *        *

However, field experience demonstrated serious deficiencies in the aircraft. While the aircraft was easy to fly and had few vices, the 20 millimeter main cannon didn't have enough killing power, and the aircraft was very vulnerable to fighter attacks from above while it was engaged in low-altitude combat. The Ilyushin design team had a meeting with representative operational pilots in the spring of 1942, and decided on a number of improvements.

The improvements were implemented in two steps, the first being the Il-2M, in which the two 20 millimeter ShVAK cannon were replaced with twin high-velocity 23 millimeter VYa cannon, and which incorporated an upgraded AM-38F engine rated at 1,750 HP.

This was quickly followed by the two-seat Il-2M3, in which the cockpit was lengthened to accommodate a gunner, who manually handled a single 12.7 millimeter UBT machine gun, mounted at the back of the cockpit and directed upward and backward. Armor was increased from 700 kilograms to 950 kilograms (2,100 pounds), partly to protect the back-seater.

Despite the heavier armor, performance hardly suffered. The longer cockpit improved the machine's aerodynamics, a slightly improved AM-38F engine provided incremental horsepower, and structural changes trimmed the weight of other parts of the aircraft, resulting in a net gain of only 100 kilograms (220 pounds). With the aircraft's major defects now corrected, the Shturmovik came into its own.

        *        *        *

The Shturmovik had been an important element in the victory, and as fighting continued into the spring of 1943, so did improvements to this vital Soviet weapon.

Most significantly, in some production, the two 23 millimeter VJa cannon were replaced by a pair of long-barreled 37 millimeter NS-37 cannon, with this variant known as Il-3-37. Each gun had 50 rounds of ammunition. This variant saw service, but it did not prove highly successful as the big guns had a hefty recoil, and also badly affected the aircraft's handling.

The Il-2M3 was also equipped with other ordnance. One was the PTAB anti-tank bomblet, which was a 2.5 kilogram (5.5 pound) hollow-charge munition. Up to a total 192 PTAB bomblets could be loaded into the Shturmovik's four little bomb bays, and could be scattered over enemy armored columns. Another weapon was the DAG-10 grenade launcher, an odd "aerial-mine" device that would eject grenades on little parachutes in the path of a pursuer and which Soviet records say was surprisingly effective. Many Il-2s also began to incorporate all-metal wings and tail surfaces.

        *        *        *

In 1943, Ilyushin and his engineers had considered what they could do to improve on the Il-2 by redesigning it essentially from scratch. The result was the Il-10, which looked very much like a cleaned-up Il-2, but was of all-metal construction, gave the rear gunner a powered turret with a single 20 millimeter gun instead of the flexible 12.7 millimeter gun, and had such aerodynamic features as main wheels that rotated 90 degrees to fit inside the wheel fairings.

There were only two bomb bays instead of four.   ...   Il-10s began reaching combat units in October 1944, joining the tens of thousands of Il-2s already in service, in preparation for the last drive on Hitler's Reich.


So, in December of 1944, when the Ostwind went into production, the Il-2 had already had two months of its successor being deployed to the front.

It should also be noted that the sheer number of Ostwinds encountered in AH is grossly ahistorical; only 43 Ostwinds and 145 Wirbelwinds were ever produced. The most common FlaK defenses were towed 20mm, quad 20mm, and 37mm guns, with self-propelled versions of these guns being almost exclusively unarmored mounts on soft-skin vehicles like the SdKfz 7/1 and 7/2 conversions.

However, heavy losses is historical:

Quote
The Shturmovik's armor made it generally impervious to anything less than 20 millimeter fire. Even that had to be accurate and precise to do the aircraft damage, and an Il-2 moving fast and jinking wildly at low altitude was a difficult target.

Despite their survivability, Shturmovik losses were high, for they fought in the teeth of the worst combat with no place to hide. Soviet factories continued churn out the simple, reliable aircraft, and those that fell were quickly replaced with new aircraft with weaknesses eliminated. Red pilots refined their tactics and training to help reduce the losses.


However,  the losses to ground fire is severely distorted by the ahistorical nature of combat in AH. An Il-2 pilot won't find the large formations of ground vehicles that the Germans employed in WWII, nor will they be operating in groups of 12-15 aircraft as the VVS employed them.

One of the things that I have observed from the receiving end is that both the M-16 and Ostwind are extremely vulnerable to groups of two or more aircraft working in concert to take down a GV. The vehicle can only fire in one direction at a time; by focussing the gunner's attention on a plane in one direction, a wingman can dive in and shoot up the GV without being exposed to the return fire.

One-on-one, it's a much more even duel; with only a single opponent to worry about, the contest usually comes down to a question of which person is the better shooter -- and a GV makes for a much more stable firing platform, particularly with the Ostwind, where the gunner can get hits outside the range of the aircraft's guns, and a single 37mm hit can render the plane uncontrollable. The M-16 is more vulnerable, because it has to allow the attacking aircraft into guns range, but its higher ROF enables it to track fire onto the aircraft more quickly than the Ostwind.

I do agree with Kweassa that some of the simplifications in the AH damage model create unrealistically brittle targets. Additionally, the complete absence of the four bomb bays on the Il-2 eliminate many of the weapons options in the actual aircraft -- The KMB cassette that would fit in a single bomb bay which carried 48 PTAB 2.5 anti-tank cluster bombs, the AJ-2 cassette carrying incendiary cluster bombs, either 30 or 50 AO-10 10kg bomblets,  and four 50kg or 100kg bombs (in addition to the ones on the external racks).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2002, 12:11:58 AM by Shiva »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2002, 06:42:49 PM »
The AH Il2 certainly does have it's 4 bomb bays....

Offline whgates3

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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2002, 10:04:36 PM »
The Il-2 type 3 (the type in AH) had wooden outer wing panels to save weight - there was also a variant of the Il-2 Type 3, the 3m that carried a 37mm cannon in s pod under each wing
this might be one

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2002, 10:06:53 PM »
Anyone reading this thread should look at http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67502

The il2 is pretty durable.  Some of the results really are surprising.

Offline Booky

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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2002, 10:17:59 PM »
Are you on crack? IL2 is one of the only attack planes that can take 1 or 2 37mm rounds and keep flying. Now if your classing it as a Bomber then you may be right, it may need more tuffness, but as a attack plane it is more than tuff enough.

Booky

Offline ra

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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2002, 11:13:29 PM »
Here's the Il-2 with 2x37mm:



From this Russian Il-2 site:

http://www.23ag.sp.mk.ua/html/il2_page_1.html

You'll need to use a Russian/English web translator.

ra

Offline Shiva

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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2002, 12:09:51 AM »
Quote
The AH Il2 certainly does have it's 4 bomb bays....


You are correct; my apologies. I had not flown the AH Il-2 with any bomb load but the 250kg bombs, and the bomb load diagram I had seen implied that the 100kg and 50kg bombs for four- and six-bomb loadouts were on multiple-bomb mounts on the underwing hardpoints, not in the bomb bays.

AH still doesn't model the full range of armaments that were carried in the bomb bays, nor do we have the BRS-82 and BRS-132 rockets -- the armor-piercing versions of the RS-82 and RS-132 rockets, which would be a lot more useful against GVs than the ones that we do have. Although, given the way that small-caliber HE rounds seem to be able to blow through tank armor with the current damage model, it may not make a difference.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2002, 12:13:38 AM by Shiva »

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2002, 12:33:42 AM »
The p38 is the biggest fighter in the MA compare that to a litle fw or yak.

can it be a bit though ??

A few 30mm rounds kill it while u have to shoot the crap out of a fw to kill it (.50)

consider that

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2002, 01:01:56 AM »
Bug, Look at my damage statistics thread.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2002, 01:12:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
The p38 is the biggest fighter in the MA compare that to a litle fw or yak.

can it be a bit though ??

A few 30mm rounds kill it while u have to shoot the crap out of a fw to kill it (.50)

consider that



BUG you gotta be diddlying retarded if you whine about the P38 DM by whining that "a few" 30mm kill a P38 but it takes "stoot the crap out of" with .50cals to kill an FW. Its a diddlying 30mm cannon that killed B17s with only 2-3 hits and you compare that to a 50cal MG....  You P38 whiner fanatics are unbelivable.

Offline XNachoX

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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2002, 01:27:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ



BUG you gotta be diddlying retarded if you whine about the P38 DM by whining that "a few" 30mm kill a P38 but it takes "stoot the crap out of" with .50cals to kill an FW. Its a diddlying 30mm cannon that killed B17s with only 2-3 hits and you compare that to a 50cal MG....  You P38 whiner fanatics are unbelivable.


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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2002, 01:32:05 AM »
Ohh no Nacho, how embarrasing for me - well I ceratainly hoped it was a troll or a joke, but its becoming harder to tell with you allied uber alles flying tank indestructable plane fanatics.