Author Topic: Il2 Durability  (Read 957 times)

Offline Innominate

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Il2 Durability
« on: October 18, 2002, 08:43:21 PM »
I've read many anecdotal reports of german pilots running out of ammo trying to shoot down IL2's.  Comments of the only really vulnerable part being the oil radiator, etc.  Yet for some reason, in AH, the il2 is no more durable than any other plane.  I find the fm2 to take far more punishment than the il2, which seems to shed it's take with only a couple of cannon rounds.

So is the il2 really not that durable, is our il2 screwed up, or does nobody care since it's a useless plane in the MA anyways?

Offline Hawklore

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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2002, 09:06:51 PM »
I have to say i flew in the Finnish host's map and man i had shot some 200 cannon rounds into the tail of this il2 and nothing and spent some 500 mg rounds into its tail when it finaly fell off.


This is in a Bf109 not a g6 maybe a g2 not exatly remember.
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
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respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
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Offline Innominate

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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2002, 09:22:05 PM »
he must have had reduced lethality.

In the german vs russian snapshot a while ago, I flew a g2 against the il2's.  They dropped like flies.

Offline Hawklore

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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2002, 09:54:12 PM »
well the way he had was perfect
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion;
respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life." - Chief Tecumseh

Offline hazed-

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Il2 Durability
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2002, 10:06:40 PM »
I think the whole 'chracter' of the IL2 has been lost in AH.

seems to me although the evedence about their toughness is anecdotal it still has some merit. after all this is an enemy describing them and im sure were in no mind to praise aircraft of their enemy. Unfortunately i dont know the thickness of the armour on the iL2 but if it was substantially thicker than your average aircraft surely that would point to these stories being true?
I hardly ever fly them in AH but I would have NO PROBLEM with them being amongst the toughest in the game.I would rather have a slight 'over durable' model to help build the tough character of the aircraft in AH.

Same could be said for the p47 . I think it used to seem pretty tough in AH but now it doesnt really stand out as especially durable plane now the rest, the f4f and fm2 and La7 and p38, all seem just as tough.

its sort of lost a bit of character too i think.I often shoot untold ammo into la7s and curse the model, as i cant see how they are so much tougher than la5s.If i do the same to a p47 at least i can read in books about how tough they were and accept it easily.

The iL2 is a perfect example of an aircraft in AH that hasnt really got much of a resemblance to the stories about them and because its so slow and next to useless i stopped flying them.Now if it took loads of hits and damaged piece by piece ie loosing elevators, flaps, wheels, guns etc etc but essentially holding together like a flying tank it would be a cool plane and it would seem a lot more like that aircraft we all read about.
Unfortunately it seems fragile in the tail and pretty much the same as other planes really.who knows though? maybe it wasnt much different and those LW pilots just needed an excuse for not shooting enough of them down?

very hard to argue for a change in AH but as i said id have no problem if HTC toughened them right up. I think we'd see it used more which would be cool.Its so lame as a jabo why not give it something to attract players to flying it? :D
« Last Edit: October 18, 2002, 10:13:48 PM by hazed- »

Offline Innominate

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Il2 Durability
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2002, 10:31:29 PM »
The p38 really isnt all that durable, it's just got a lot of extra parts to hit.  They break just as easily, theres just more of them(i.e. two vert stabs, two engines, etc)

The il2 is a usefull plane except that, 1 flak panzer or manned ack round still kills it, and it's tail falls off if you spit at it.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2002, 11:49:23 PM »
Ohh... the P38 is tough.  A lot tougher than your average plane.  

I wish the IL-2 was tougher, although you have to remember that as a ground attack plane it was armored against ground fire.  I'm not sure the tail and such would have been armored, since not to much ground fire comes from above and behind the plane in question.  

Another thing you have to remember is that in real life the IL-2 was attacking Pz IIIs, IVs, Panthers, and Tigers.  Occasionally they'd run into a dedicated AAA platform with machineguns.  I'd say that in WW2 dedicated AAA platforms with cannon were fairly rare.  Or at least mobile AAA platforms that you'd see accompany the tanks.  In AH it is the exact opposite.  You run into Flakpansie after Flakpansie ad nauseum, to the point where if you see a tan dot you assume it is a flakpansie.  If it turns out to be a tank you are shocked.  The IL-2 can take more than one hit from the Flakpansie.  Well, I've heard it can, it has never happened to me.  

I'd say in a Flakpansie vs Il2 battle the Flakpansie has about a 60-70% chance of winning, closer to 100% if the IL-2 is out of bombs and rockets.  

It is a useless plane in this environment.

Offline Wotan

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Il2 Durability
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2002, 12:28:07 AM »
top 20 LE il2 killers

Quote
Hptm. Joachim Brendel 88 il2s
 
Maj. Johannes Wiese 70+
 
Hptm. Franz Schall 64
 
Oblt. Günther Josten 60
 
Maj. Erich Rudorffer 58
 
Maj. Franz Eisenach 52
 
Maj. Diethelm von Eichel-Streiber 43
 
Oblt. Kurt Dombacher 43
 
Lt. Peter "Bonifaz" Düttmann 38
 
Lt. Hermann Schleinhege 38
 
Hptm. Helmut Lipfert 36
 
Obst. Walter Dahl 34
 
Oblt. Hans Waldmann 33
 
Maj. Erich Leie 31
 
Hptm. Werner Lucas 31
 
Hptm. Erich "Bubi" Hartmann 30
 
Oblt. Fritz Seyffardt 30
 
Ofw. Josef "Pepi" Jennewein 29
 
Oblt. Gerhard Thyben 28
 
Lt. Heinz Kemethmüller 26
 


Does that look like a tough plane to shoot down a2a?

Its was protected against ground fire and the pilot was in an armored cockpit.

The tail, the gunner, the wings were all easy targets for fighters.

I can post a few pilot stories, one whee one guy shut down 6 of 10 alone.

The reason the il2 sux in ah is because when used against gvs you ultimately face the ostwind.

But even then the il2s rockets kick arse.

When used as an attack aircraft without fighter cover at an airfield its easily run down and killed.

The ground forces called it the black death, fighter pilots made careers killing it.

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2002, 01:14:35 AM »
heh, I did some tests with the damage model, and got some surprising results.
Ill post more when i know more.

I don't dispute the il2 being essentially defenseless, but it was extremely tough.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2002, 02:06:00 AM »
extremely tough from ground fire not fighter attacks.


Fighters dropped umm like dirty shirts.

Offline HoHun

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Re: Il2 Durability
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2002, 05:22:48 AM »
Hi Innominate,

>I've read many anecdotal reports of german pilots running out of ammo trying to shoot down IL2's.  Comments of the only really vulnerable part being the oil radiator, etc.  

The Ilyushin Il-2 had an armour-steel nose, protecting engine, pilot, fuel tank and rear gunner. The tail was of conventional construction, and the wings outboard of the landing gear actually were made from wood. (Late-war Il-2's finally had metal wings, however.)

As a result, the ciritical components and the crew was very well protected from fire. Under typical attack angles, even 20 mm armour piercing rounds couldn't be expected to penetrate.

However, the rest of the Stormovik's structure was just as vulnerable as any other aircraft's - the wooden wings even more than any other's. It's more diffficult to hit a wing with a solid burst of cannon shells than the fuselage, but it would take off the Ilyushin's wing just the same.

In fact there's anecdotal evidence from German fighter pilots pointing out that 30 mm shells typically achieved just that result - sending the Il-2 down by destroying one wing. The fuselage armour probably was good enough to withstand 30 mm shells as well, so the wing was the weak link where the chain had to break.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2002, 06:15:50 AM »
I think problem is that in AH guns are too strong and there is no damaged state.
Only damage states are intact and destroyed.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2002, 02:06:56 PM »
I think the whole AH modell needs an Update, it's basicly been the same since AH got out while other flight games get out with much superior dammage modelling.

As for P38 not being tough, it is, it's VERY TOUGH, I've flown it, last time i took 9x20mm from town ack and all that happaned was my engine 1 radiator started smoking. The thing is a tank, and it is even more noticable as you can shoot of stabs etc thanks to it having two of them. Other planes, described as very very tough, aren't anywhere near as tough as the P38 (P47 quickly comes to mind, as does the 190 F8).

See if I can find Il2 armor, it seems a bit vulnerable aswell.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Kweassa

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Il2 Durability
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2002, 02:53:29 PM »
 My guess is that it's something about the damage modelling and gunnery modelling.  If AH really uses carefully selected realistic data, the only reason why it would bring unrealistical results would be they are not used in the correct(or, sufficient) manner. This may be due to technological issues or limits in current PC specs.

 Changing the DM is probably gonna make heaps of people suffer and whine, and a still a lot of time and effort has to be put in it. However, as it is, it is probably the most lacking aspect of AH aside from graphics, and something HTC must go through in order to achieve a level closer to perfection :)

 I have no idea how the damage is calculated, but so far, reading through the boards carefully sometime now, the only thing that would influence the hitting power of the fired round seems to be the initial kinetic state of the plane - ie. the power when you hit a plane with .50s at 200mph and 400mph will be different. I don't belive I've ever seen any other source of influence mentioned when people discussed the power of rounds - ie. Hispano discussions then and now.

 This would lead to the problem of how sophisticated a gunnery model should be. IMO gunnery modelling and damage modelling is very closely related. In some other discussion where people compared the DM and GM between IL-2 and AH, there was a very solid statement by a beta-tester of IL-2 that IL-2 models the individual quality of shots fired - a explosive 20mm shell going off on the surface of an airframe is significantly weaker than a well-placed 20mm shell which digs into it and blows up inside.

 This type of GM, which seems it is not perfected yet, sometimes brings out strange results(like a 30mm round hitting a plane and doing almost no damage to it), but is significant in that it brought up the difficulty in gunnery upto respectable levels which for so long people have sought in flight-sim games.

 Unless you are close enough to verify that all your cannon rounds have hit with spectacular results, shooting a target at further distance than the "realistic shooting distances" noted in real-life anecdotes will result in blasphemous waste of ammo in that a) you can't assure the quality of the hits you've landed, and b) unless its a cannon round, it is very difficult to confirm your hits in the first place. In short, when there's a target further than 300 meters, you can't be sure if what you see is really what is happening. You seem to land hits, specks and shards fall off, see an shell explosion or two, but the enemy flies on.

 However, this is exactly the opposite of what happens in AH. You can confirm hits easily, which promotes people shooting and spraying at long ranges, and also, the quality of hits are very lacking. If you land stray 20mm hits against an extending plane, the only thing that would affect the power of the hit attained is the relative speed and distance between you and the target. It would be weaker than firing up close and personal, but whether it grazes the surface, snips off a protruding antenna, blows up on the outer skin it will all be registered as if the round dug up into the structure and blew up inside. In short, the amount of damage assigned to a gun round is generic in every case, only specific according to speed or type of round.

 Thus, when you fire three shells and only one of them is really "hit", the other two much lighter in damage, it will still calculate damage as "3x20mm rounds =XX points", and then subtract it from the hitpoint assigned to a plane structure. In real life the wing that sustained 1 heavy hit but two light hit might hold together, but in AH it would tear off.  Couple this fact with the "all or nothing" DM and voila, you get the so-called "tough" birds dropping like flies - P-47s, IL-2 , and also people spraying and praying at 500~800 yard ranges and getting kills.

 If the quality of the rounds hit are modelled, with better hit sprites according to type of ammunition, plus a more sophisticated damage modelling.. I have a feeling the IL-2 and the P-47 would really live up to its name as a "tough tough mutha". :)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2002, 02:58:52 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2002, 03:42:00 PM »
Great post Kweassa.:)