Author Topic: God In Heaven (Read 632 times)

funkedup · « **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2002, 11:38:29 PM »

If this went as well at is appears initially, it will go down as one of the greatest anti-terrorist actions in history. I hope the civilian casualties were minimal.

funkedup · « **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2002, 11:40:24 PM »

BTW most of the US commentators are just using the language used by the Russian officials, who are calling them "rebels".

Russian · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2002, 01:39:38 AM »

Ìýð Ìîñêâû Þðèé Ëóæêîâ ñîîáùèë, ÷òî â òåàòðàëüíîì öåíòðå "Íîðä-Îñò" ïîãèáëè "äî 30 çàëîæíèêîâ". "Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, åñòü æåðòâû. ß èõ îöåíèâàþ ïðèìåðíî â 30 ÷åëîâåê", - çàÿâèë Ëóæêîâ â ñóááîòó æóðíàëèñòàì ó îïåðàòèâíîãî øòàáà ïî îñâîáîæäåíèþ çàëîæíèêîâ. Ìýð íå óòî÷íèë, ïîãèáëè ëè ýòè ëþäè â ðåçóëüòàòå øòóðìà èëè áûëè óáèòû òåððîðèñòàìè.

The mayor of Moscow Urii Luzhkov has informed, that in the theater died " up to 30 hostages ". Unfortunately, there are victims. "I estimate them approximately in 30 people ", - have declared Luzhkov on Saturday to journalists at an operation control for saving hostages. The mayor did not specified, whether these people were lost as a result of storm or were killed by terrorists.

Dowding · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2002, 03:29:40 AM »

I'm glad they ended it with so few casualties.

So, is Putin going to declare the Chechyan War over... again?

Strange how a war that is supposedly over is killing 30,000 a year. Certainly looks like Russia's second Vietnam in as many decades is just going to run and run.

Very sad.

Swoop · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2002, 06:04:56 AM »

How many hostages died?

Kirin · « **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2002, 06:28:03 AM »

Glad it's over of course. Taking of hostages is always a losing situation.

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Although the operation was not just as textbook as first seen. I don't know how many but *some* hostages died because of the gas the theater was flooded with - they choked to death on their vomit. And many of them still suffer from toxic effect - the composition of the gas being kept secret so treatement is very difficult.

I am no expert here but it seems the military used a knock-out gas that aimed at rendering the enemy ineffective in the shortest possible time by using nauseous and narcotic effect at the same time. Taking the risk of victim death.

OTH, hospitals called for the need of blood - indicating there are wounded - so situation is not clear yet.
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As for preparation and planning on the terrorist side what the officials like to repeat. Local newspapers speak of a terrible failure by the russian internal security. Since the bomb attacks in moscow security was extremely tightend and whoever looked slightly like coming from the caucasus region was being controled. In such an enviroment an attack on that scale couldn't have been done without the extensive use of corruption. I mean 4 dozen armed terrorists drive by with several cars directly under the nose of the russian security force...
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Quote

Next step, revenge!

I pray to god that won't happen - why does mankind not learn from history??

Kirin · « **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2002, 06:28:45 AM »

Swoop - last I heard was 67 hostages dead.

rogwar · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2002, 07:57:23 AM »

All things considered the counter terror teams did the best job they could. There could have been many more killed for certain.

babek- · « **Reply #23 on:** October 26, 2002, 01:21:28 PM »

German TV reported that more than 90 hostages were killed.

The russians had to act because the terrorists started to kill the hostages. WTG for the Gas-idea - so they couldnt set up the bombs.

Thrawn · « **Reply #24 on:** October 26, 2002, 01:24:35 PM »

The Russians HAD to act, simple as that. I'm no tactics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly sounds like it was a toejamty situation.

funkedup · « **Reply #25 on:** October 26, 2002, 06:48:02 PM »

Yep better 90 dead than 700 dead. It's still a tragedy, but it could have been a lot worse if not for the heroes of the Russian military.

Russian · « **Reply #26 on:** October 26, 2002, 07:13:00 PM »

Information around Internet is that Russians used some type of nerve gas. Those 90 casualties were result of that gas.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #27 on:** October 26, 2002, 07:30:34 PM »

to the Russian troops that put an end to this.

Condolances to those that lost friends and family.

Maybe something good will come of this.

AKDejaVu

wulfie · « **Reply #28 on:** October 26, 2002, 07:48:38 PM »

The gas they used may have been some type of nerve agent, but don't equate that to 'the Russians hit the building with VX then treated all the hostages with antidotes'. It's not the same thing at all.

What they used was probably the equivalent in lethality of your average CS type gas (i.e. military 'tear gas'), but instead of attacking the eyes, nose, throat, etc. it probably attacked the nervous system. Think 'powerful and rapid acting sleeping gas'.

In other words, it wasn't a 'hard core' lethal agent. VX is over 99% lethal in a very short period of time. For example, a description of the gas used might (I say might, because I don't know what they used specifically) be described as '4% lethal within 1 hour but no before 20 minutes'.

The vast majority of the hostages who were killed or injured were killed or injured by gunfire, explosion, fragmentation, etc. Some died due to complications from the gas used. But remember - if they had used CS gas an old person with asthma could die from exposure to CS gas.

The official word from the Russian doctors who have examined hostages who have died from exposure to the gas was that the death of those hostages was due to 'pre-existing conditions' (see my comment about CS and older people with asthma above).

The gun battle lasted almost an hour, which means there were for certain some hostages who didn't have a crack at real medical treatment for at least 80 minutes after being exposed to the gas.

===

Well, most of the above data is incorrect. At least one Dr. in Russia is probably in some trouble - because that data was from a Dr. who had been treating hostages.

Also:

They announced what agent they used - BZ, which is a heck of alot nastier than what I was guessing they used.

Before anyone goes crazy on the Russians - the way the building was wired with explosives (to cause massive casualties as well as structural failure) if they had conducted their assault without some type of similar 'preparation' the % of hostages killed and wounded would have been a great deal higher.

Mike/wulfie

(edit: due to lack of sleep was typing 'CX' instead of 'VX'...d'oh!)

Russian · « **Reply #29 on:** October 26, 2002, 09:18:21 PM »

The leadership of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) thanked representatives of foreign special services for cooperation and assistance provided in the process of resolution of the critical situation with seizure of hostages in Moscow.

Shortly before the start of the hostage-release operation, Colonel General Viktor Komogorov, Deputy Head of RF Federal Security Service (FSB), in charge of the FSB analytical, forecasting and strategic planning department, held a meeting with representatives of special services and security agencies from a number of foreign countries. The meeting focused on the hostage crisis in Moscow. A spokesperson for the FSB Public Relations Centre (FSB PRC) told RIA Novosti that General Komogorov had briefed those present on the counter-terrorist efforts undertaken by the Russian special services.

"The participants in the meeting reached complete mutual understanding on the issues pertaining to foreign special services' collaboration with the RF Federal Security Service in regard of resistance to terror," the FSB PRC spokesman stressed.

"Our partners offered the FSB their expertise and potential to effectively cope with the hostage crisis in Moscow," the spokesperson added.

The meeting was attended by representatives of special services and security agencies from Argentina, Belgium, Hungary, Great Britain, Vietnam, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, China, South Korea, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, the USA, Turkey, France, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, SAR, Japan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine and Turkmenistan.
http://www.infocentre.ru/eng_user/index.cfm?page=0&date=2002-10-27&startrow=1&msg_id=50865