Author Topic: Ver Haff All Zee Bombers Gone? (Read 986 times)

Shiva · « **Reply #30 on:** October 30, 2002, 04:15:04 PM »

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I'd go one farther and suggest that anything smaller than a 37-mm be ineffective against large structures and ammo bunkers

There's a much more realistic way to deal with it, but it involves looking at ammunition types.

1) Solid-shot weapons -- machine guns and AP rounds -- are going to punch nice, round holes in things if they penetrate, but even with a light wooden-framed house, it's going to take a lot of 3" diameter holes to even have a chance of knocking down a house. Machine guns should not damage structures. AP rounds might be able to damage a house if they can hit something sufficiently structural -- not likely, maybe 1% chance every hit. There's one exception, though -- fuel tanks. An AP round is going to punch right through the tank and start a leak; any tracer round hitting a fuel tank with a leak, or any round striking a spark off the tank, would cause the tank to ignite and burn. (Actually, ammo bunkers would be an exception, too, but in the other way; the earth berm typically raised over the concrete shell of an ammo bunker would stop penetration of an AP round.)

2) Burst-effect weapons -- all weapons that carry a bursting charge for their primary effect -- have their blast effect applied against the structure's integrity; when the integrity reaches 0, the structure collapses. The blast effect is proportional to the weight of the bursting charge, and diminishes according to the cube of the miss distance.

A town building requires a 250-lb bomb to destroy it. HE bombs typically had about half their weight as a bursting charge, so the bursting charge will be about 125 pounds. The US 37mm M54 HE projectile had a bursting charge of 0.1 pounds; in order to get the same accumulated blast effect as one 250-lb bomb, it would take 1250 37mm shells. You can extrapolate for sturdier buildings.

Unfortunately, this is likely to be unpopular, as it pretty much castrates the Ostwind as a tool to take down a town for capture. On the other hand, in the pictures I've seen from WWII, where ground troops are moving through a destroyed built-up area, the destruction has been caused by either aerial bombing or bombardment by heavy artillery -- not by a light FlaK gun.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 30, 2002, 06:04:23 PM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
Perk every bomb over 250 lbs for single engine fitghters... no perk points if you don't survive the sortie and you will see more big fluffs.
lazs

(Sigh)
I never thought we would see the day that Lazs would make a suggestion that would INCREASE bomber use.

That alone speaks volumes.

eskimo

Thrawn · « **Reply #32 on:** October 30, 2002, 06:19:34 PM »

What lazs said.

Karnak · « **Reply #33 on:** October 30, 2002, 08:06:00 PM »

Lazs has the right idea, but goes too far in one way and not far enough in another way.

500lb bombs were commonly carried by fighters in WWII. Therefore I'd say that 500lb bombs and lighter should be free.

On the other hand, I see no reason to distingish between single engined fighters and twin engined fighters. P-38's, for example, carried 500lb bombs far more commonly than they carried 1,000lb bombs.

Couple the perking of 1,000lb bombs with the elimination of damage to town buildings, factories, hangers and hardend targets by any gun smaller than 40mm (eliminate the Ostwind as a base killer at the same time) and heavy bombers suddenly have a purpose again.

lazs2 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 31, 2002, 08:04:13 AM »

karnak.. that is fine with me.. I don't know enough about how bombs or even battling buildings works in AH to say. The main point would be tho that once they were perked the perk value could be adjusted to stop gameplay ruining behavior.

eskimo... I am not saying anything that is inconsistent. I still don't want fluffs ruining the game. I like the fact that a large fluff can't lazer bomb vital gameplay targets anymore and ruin the fun of dozens of guys... Now all we have to do is close a few more loopholes of the talentless.
lazs

Charon · « **Reply #35 on:** October 31, 2002, 08:55:55 AM »

Laz's and Karnak's suggestions would really start to balance the arena far more than it is today. In fact, the MA seems to be almost AW "big pork"like, especially with the Pizza Map (a great map with 700 people im sure, but not with 400 or less IMO.)

Each platform would have a distinct purpose, like it did in RL, and you would have to see some degree of coordination and cooperation to take a base. It would present the win the war crowd with a change comprable to what the the bombsight adjustment was to bomber pilots. IMO, not a bad thing. The current capture mechanism has been way too gamey, at least for me, all the way back to AW DOS days. It would even make milkrunning much more of a challenge. Taking out a carrier would also be more of a challenge.

However, the whinestorm would be of epic porportions

Or would it? People seem to have adapted rather quickly to the new bombing system.

Great ideas.

Charon

[edit: Here's an additional suggestion. Require land capture for bases on plains type terraine to integrate the land war. Troops could still be air dropped to take mountain bases. That give the Jabos more of a tactical air mission related to the "war."]

muckmaw · « **Reply #36 on:** October 31, 2002, 09:07:55 AM »

Lazs is not saying anything inconsistent with his gamestyle.

He could care less about the Bombers. What is bugging him now are the suicide jabos that have replaced the heavies as field killers.

Kill a field, and you kill Lazs idea of fun....mindless quake style furball. Hey that's what he enjoys. More power to him. There are plenty like him.

So don't kid yourself. Lazs is not trying to help anyone's playstyle or game experience but his own. His suggestion of perking bombs on Jabos will do what? Lower the number of fields being porked by jabos. Less Jabos=less porked fields=more places to launch from=less time flying, more time furballing=Lazs' idea of a great time.

It just so happens in this case, that we are on the same page, in that Jabo's and Osti's should not be able to replace Heavy bombers.

lazs2 · « **Reply #37 on:** October 31, 2002, 11:21:08 AM »

muck.... i freely admitted as much. I make no claims toward altruism or even charity. What I want is variety, parity and choice. I do not want it to be to easy for the talentless to have an "effect" on the gameplay of others. If they have very little talent then they should have very little effect on gameplay...

I am not very talented either but.... I have to work at ruining someones fun... even then... I can only ruin one persons fun at a time and I put as much or more effort and skill forth as my opponent.
lazs

Alias_1 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 31, 2002, 11:35:00 AM »

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Originally posted by Amboss
What's it with this poor, fake german accent writing? Is that supposed to be l33t or something? Should it add to the ambiance? Or are you ridiculing german speaking people?

-Amboss

A little Sensitive are we?!

muckmaw · « **Reply #39 on:** October 31, 2002, 11:42:20 AM »

Define for me, exactly, whom you consider to be "Talentless" Lazs.

Wotan · « **Reply #40 on:** October 31, 2002, 12:33:21 PM »

ht said he was going to make the towns and strat larger. If any of you have the new terrain editor the new objects are there (I assume that the new ones are them).

I working on a map right now that has even larger strat objects. But when tested and overflown at 5k the frame rate drop will be intolerable for lo end users. Add in multiple bomb blasts and ack and lo end userd cpus might explode.

Theres very little wrong with bombers right now. Turbot posted an image a while back of him hitting from 33k. All bombs with in the target square.

I personally care very little about bombers outside of scenarios. But bomber pilots still do the same dweeb things they did before the new model. I watched 3 groups of lancasters fly in at 4 k over a fleet then repeat until they landed enough to kill it. Bombers are and have always been the biggest dweeb magnet in ah. No la7 or spit or 51 has the impact the a few ack starring suicide bomber dweebs have. Suicide jabos have always been a part of ah. But with numbers above 350 there are just so many more that now their impact on gameplay overshadows the fluffers.

I would be all for adjusting town and strat object hardeness. I am all for larger and moere abundant strat objects. But it will get to the point where the minimum requirements for ah will have to be increased.

where have all the fluffers gone? Who the hell cares.......Now we need to send the suicide jabos in the same direction.

muckmaw · « **Reply #41 on:** October 31, 2002, 12:53:46 PM »

Here we go again.

Lazs-

I was looking at your scores, and the numbers you put up in the FM2 are incredible.

I noticed that you got 25 kills of LA7's. Were these snapshots, or did they generally make the mistake of turn fighting you?

Also, I've noticed you have yet to kill a pony this tour. To what do you attribute this?

I guess what I'm saying is you managed to kill 25 fast planes of 1 type, and none of the other. Are the ponies more inclined to run than fight? I would think the 51 would be a newbie plane, and would be more inclined to make the mistake of turn fighting an FM2.

You should consider setting up a page like MATHMAN did for the F6F.

lazs2 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 31, 2002, 01:21:16 PM »

hmm... was sure I got a pony or three... I am not very good tho.

most of my kills on La7's are simple reversals. They come in hot behind me and I get a snapshot as they go by. some of my kills of other planes are vultchs but not many vultchs of la7's on the runway for some reason.

I believe that I kill so many La7's because there are so many out there.

I am amazed that more people don't fly the FM2 when it is such an easy plane to kill in. even i can do it.
lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #43 on:** October 31, 2002, 01:24:50 PM »

muck... i consider riding a bomb into the FH or CV as being "talentless" in the context of this thread.
lazs

eskimo2 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 31, 2002, 02:15:01 PM »

I think I'm starting to warm up to Lazs. In this thread alone he's made a suggestion that would effectively increase the use and importance of bombers, and then someone points out that he collects El-Gay-Seven scalps.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him driving a goon soon.

eskimo