Author Topic: Guns question - need advice  (Read 835 times)

Offline miko2d

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Guns question - need advice
« on: October 30, 2002, 09:15:35 AM »
With my son turning a year old, I can not procrastinate any longer if I expect him to treat weapons as a basic item of a household. I need a gun of two.

 I am looking for a basic versatile gun that is not too large and can be used by a medium-sized person primarily as a military weapon in short to medium range combat, not necessarily good for hunting, home-defence or long-range sniping. It should use ammo that is common and not too expensive to practice.
 I would also be interested in a 22cal training weapon.

 I looked at Ruger Mini autoloading rifles - Mini-14 which uses .223 Remington high-velocity NATO round (bullet weight 50-60 grain) and Mini-30 which uses 7.62x39 (Kalashnikov?) round (bullet weight 140-160 grain). 10 round magazines standard and longer ones can be used.
 Both models look identical, have 18.5" barrel and are pretty compact. If I get one, I would consider equipping it with a bullpup stock for even more compactness and balance.

 Anyone had any experience with those guns? Are they any good? Which caliber would be better choice? Which one has more recoil?
 AK-47 uses the same round as Mini-30 but is heavier and has shorter barrel - and it's recoil was quite significant.

 What do you think?
 What about bullpup configuration? I always though that having all that stock taking space and heavy barrel protruding forward was a waste (except for a sniper weapon). There is apparently only one bullpup rifle being sold in US - Bushmaster M17 for Remingtom .223 round. just 30" total length with 21.5" barrel. Is that any good?

 For practice I considered Ruger 10/22, which looks and feels close to Mini and can be equipped with similar bullpup stock if I go with it for primary weapon.

 How about home defence? In pervious discussion use of longarms was discouraged because of unweildiness and risk of over-penetration. Also, owning a pistol is just too much hassle here in NYC. How about using a bullet-caliber 10-round carbine like Ruger PC 9 or Marlin 9mm Camp Rifle?
 There is even a bullpup stock available for Marlin, so the part protruding from the handle forward would not be much longer than a long pistol while balance and control would probably be better?

 Any other weapons worth considering?
 Where could I obtain ballistic and trajectory data for those and other weapons/rounds?

 My only real experience with rifles was mandated AK47 and AK74, so I may not even know which things to consider while buying a weapon, please advise me.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2002, 09:23:38 AM »
Get a dog.

Offline Ripsnort

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2002, 09:23:52 AM »
I'm into hunting rifles, can't help you there..but in response to the latter part of your post...
Best home defense is a shotgun, that way you won't waste your neighbor if you miss or the bullet passes thru the intruder.

Offline Modas

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2002, 09:33:39 AM »
if ur looking for home defense, a shotgun is best as you are less likely to send a round thru a wall.

Personally, I'd choose a 12 gage pump riot gun with a laser site.  I don't think there is anything more intimidating than hearing the and then seeing the little red dot traveling across the wall.  Anyone in the house at that point will either be smart and leave, or they'll be in a world of hurt.  Point and shoot

If ur looking for a training gun, stick with a .22 caliber as the ammunition is dirt cheap.

When you son gets older, upgrade to something a little more complex.  No sense in spending large amounts of cash before he is ready.

Offline GtoRA2

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I agree with Tahgut, Get a dog.
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2002, 09:42:37 AM »
Best home defense money can buy and the kidd will love it.

As for a gun?

Well If you can not do a handgun, the only real choice for you is a shotgun.

LOL My advice, get the hell out of the New yuck area!

Just do not move to California, it sucks here too for gun owners.

Offline -dead-

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2002, 09:48:18 AM »
I couldn't resist this one:
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Naso

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2002, 09:54:13 AM »
For home defence, I guess an M-60 with autotracking IR-sensor system.

For driving purpose I heard that Porche had an old model of optional that was used a lot of years ago but it's still a good one.
Look at your car-sellers if there is still some PzKw V left, the ones with the Porche turret, they are useful in heavy traffic situation, too.

Offline bounder

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Re: Guns question - need advice
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2002, 09:55:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

 What about bullpup configuration? I always though that having all that stock taking space and heavy barrel protruding forward was a waste (except for a sniper weapon). There is apparently only one bullpup rifle being sold in US - Bushmaster M17 for Remingtom .223 round. just 30" total length with 21.5" barrel. Is that any good?


 The main problem with bullpup weapons (Like the crappy SA80) is that the sight line is so high above the barrel, because of the stock/action configuration.

This means that the vertical convergence angle between your sight line and the barrel line is much higher than on a 'traditional rifle' where the sight line is much closer to the barrell.

The upshot of this is that if you zero your sights at 150m you will find that the bullet will be way out at other ranges.

Also bullpup rifles are not suitable for left handers since they tend to get spent cartridges in the face

Offline Nash

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2002, 09:59:33 AM »
"With my son turning a year old, I can not procrastinate any longer if I expect him to treat weapons as a basic item of a household. I need a gun or two.

Lol!... awesome. :D

Offline Ripsnort

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2002, 10:05:07 AM »
Actually Nash, I took him seriously!  My sons have watched me clean my weapons, and the "fascination" of guns are no longer...matter of fact, the 6 yr. old now helps me clean them. He is looking forward to turning 8, thats when he starts training with air rifles.  At 10, he'll own his first .22 long rifle...same as I, and a hand-me-down Ruger .22.

Offline AKDejaVu

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2002, 10:23:03 AM »
If you're serious...

Get a Ruger 10/22.   No explanation needed.  Its simply the best general purpose 22 on the market.

As for the rest...

Mini-14s are OK.  I prefer the AR-15 to the Mini-14, however.  And I do believe I'd rather get an AK-47 than a Mini-30 (if they are the same round.. you sure its not a .308?).

I don't really know why you'd want to get the bullpups out on the market right now... you could buy a new car for cheaper.

AKDejaVu
« Last Edit: October 30, 2002, 10:37:13 AM by AKDejaVu »

Offline H. Godwineson

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2002, 10:32:49 AM »
MT,

Dogs provide a certain measure of security...but hardened cons aren't afraid of them.  They can be killed fairly easily by a man with a hammer.

Far be it from me to contradict some of my fellow gun owners, but a shotgun is not ideal for home defense because of its length.  If you attempt to cut it down you can get in a lot of trouble with the law.  Just ask Randy Weaver.  Some experts believe that a good quality, low-velocity handgun is a better choice.  No .44 magnums please.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Creamo

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2002, 10:47:23 AM »
Mossberg 500 series pump shotgun.

They are way cheap, and with the 2 barrels and bag of choke tubes you can hunt all game birds and small game. Plus large animals like deer and wild boar. Oh and it will be hard not miss intruders WITH dogs. The smaller rifle barrel will be a compact in home defence weapon. Plus you ought not kill the neighbors while shooting the burgler.

Just don't shoot your eye out kid.

Offline AKIron

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2002, 11:06:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Get a dog.


He might be Muslim. Where's your famous liberal sensitivity? :rolleyes:
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Durr

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Guns question - need advice
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2002, 11:22:34 AM »
Get a gun AND a dog! :D   A good German Shepherd is a rough customer that I wouldnt want to mess with if I were a burglar, and a dog is far more alert than you could possibly ever be.  The dogs skills in deterrence and alerting you to intruders is his most important function, but never underestimate their ability in a fight if you have the right kind of dog.  I wouldnt want to take one on with the aforementioned hammer.  However, a bad guy with a gun could remove the threat of a dog very quickly assuming he didnt have to worry about noise.  

I grew up in the country where if a burglar had broken in, he could have fired a machine gun without drawing any attention from the neighbors since the closest neighbors were far away.  We didnt have much crime but we always had to stand ready for self defense.  I agree that a shotgun is the best weapon for self defense under most circumstances, even with a long barrel.  The high probability of a hit, and the stunning impact from a load of buckshot make the shotgun king.  However, a pistols compactness and easy pointability compensate for its lack of power, reduced accuracy.  I believe that the .45 ACP is the all time greatest in terms of a defensive cartridge, but that is an endless debate that I dont want to get into here.  Personally I would prefer a .45 ACP autopistol near the bed area and a shotgun stored nearby (20 or 12 gauge).  If like in our old house, there was nice clear fields of fire (we had an open balcony from upstairs overlooking most of the first floor area) the shotgun would be ideal, assuming enough warning time elapsed that you could get the shotgun, assume position, still catch the intruder in the downstairs area.  The pistol would be used in last ditch situations where the intruder had already gained access to the bedroom area and such.  

Again, having a dog increases the chances of early detection of any intruder and would allow you to engage him with your best weapon (the shotgun).  

Calling the police for us was a very poor option since we lived 30 minutes from the nearest town, and thus response time was likely to be at least that long.  Fortunately there is little crime that far out in the country, but we had to go to full red alert several times when I was younger.  

Once four men robbed a local gas station, making off with cases of alchohol.  They were reported to be armed with at least one handgun.  After a high speed police chase, they were forced off the road near our house.  A very large manhunt ensued with all local residents being warned not to answer the door to strangers.  My dad was cutting hay and not about to lose a days work so he strapped on a pistol and went back to work.  I was stationed on an exterior balcony with a shotgun and pistol to ensure that nobody approached the house from the rear unnoticed.  The Sheriffs department fortunately caught the last of the men about 1/8th of a mile behind our house in the forest.  In this case, police were close but in others, response time was very long.  

One night poachers fired at some deer in a field in front of our house.  My dad stepped outside, just in time to hear another bullet crack past the house.  My dad was angered by the fact that they were firing almost directly towards our house, not to mention the fact that they were poaching our deer.  He ran out without even stopping to get a gun, and chased them down in his car.  The interstate is nearby, and once on the interstate he ran them down easily.  After writing down their license plate numbers, he quickly jumped off on a nearby exit.  They must have thought at first that he was a law enforcement vehicle, but upon seeing him leaving the interstate, they also spun around in the median and started chasing him.  Now my dad was a little nervous, as he was unarmed, and they had at least one hunting rifle for sure.  He outran them in a chase with speeds from 110-120mph, and rather then go directly back to our house with them right behind, he went to my grandfathers place nearby to borrow a pistol, and to call the police, and also my mom to tell us not to open the door.  Again I was stationed upstairs with shotgun to defend the frontal area of the house.  At the time of this incident I was perhaps 11 or 12 years old.  The police took about 40 minutes to arrive.  Fortunately the poachers never showed up.  

These are just 2 of at least 6 incidents that I have personally experienced in my 25 years, where having a gun for self defense could have been the difference between life and death.  Fortunately for me (and for the bad guys too) none of them ever made it to the shooting stage.  But any one of them could have.  I relate one last incident that happened to some of our neighbors to show what could happen in a situation like these.  

Two teenagers from Baton Rouge, a 17 year old punk, and his 15 year old girlfriend, stole a car and went on a crime spree.  They ran out of gas in northern Lousiana near where we lived, and abandoned the car.  They stopped at a house and asked to use the phone.  There was a lady at home, with her two kids, one a girl about 13 years old, and her little brother about 8 years old.  The lady felt a little uneasy for some reason apparently and didnt invite them into the house, but brought the portable phone to the door for them to use.  They then asked for a drink of water.  The 13 year old girl went to the kitchen to get it when she heard a shot.  She then heard more shooting and ran out the back door to a neighbors house.  The criminals chased her partway firing at her as she crossed the pasture that separated the two houses.  She made it safely, and the police were called from there.  When they arrived they found that the 2 perps had stolen the family vehicle and were gone.  The mother had been gunned down in the doorway, and the little boy was found dead in his bedroom behind the bed with his bb gun.  He apparently retreated to there and tried to defend himself with this.  The community was in an uproar over this incident as you can imagine, and the two were caught not long thereafter.  The boy is still in prison (he got life if I remember correctly) and the girl has since been released.  

I relate these stories to show what can happen.  To my mind, having a gun for self defense isnt paranoid, its just simply good sense.  You will probably never need a gun, but if you ever do need one, you will probably REALLY need it.  The person that is in the end responsible for your own safety and security is not the police, it is you!

I recommend dog and guns if circumstances permit.  This is an awesome defensive combination.  I would no more stay in a house without a gun, than I would ride in a car without a seatbelt.