Midway Glaring proof of why we nead the A6M3

[Karnak]

Which side did you fly on jordi?

[Curval]

Originally posted by Oedipus
The absolute correct model should be the A6M3.1415926535897932...

Allied code name "Lamb-pi"

LOL...funny Oedipus, and quite clever.

[J_A_B]

People in Jordi's position don't usually fly.  I could be mistaken though.

J_A_B

[Puke]

Well, I for one elected not to play Midway because of the funky plane set, we have late model wildcats and early model Zero's...

Then your reasons for electing not to participate are flawed.  It was my understanding (and is reinforced by others' postings on here) that the A6M2 was the enemy fighter type at the Battle Of Midway.  As far as the Wildcat, I am more familiar with them and the F4F-4 was at the battle having just replaced many F4F-3s prior to the battle.  In fact, many pilots preferred the F4F-3 to the -4.  The British requested the "Martlett" (and thus the F4F-4) increase firepower to six .50s and a few other changes that made the type heavier but having the same exact powerplant (horsepower.)  The -4 posessed folding wings and thus more could be carried on the CVs.  But many pilots preferred the F4F-3 because it was lighter and thus was actually more manueverable and having just four .50s was not as critical during that period of the war in the Pacific as opposed to Europe.  I would love to have the earlier model Wildcat, to be honest.  But your reason for not playing based on the fighter matchups is in err and a poor decision.

[jordi]

Originally posted by Karnak
Which side did you fly on jordi?

Just in case you are not aware . . .

I am the Lead Designer and Head CM for the CLASH at MIDWAY - CM run Historical Scenario.

As HEAD CM I do not FLY during the Scenario. Neither do the SIDE CM's who are in contact with the the CO's nor the SETUP CM who setups the paramaters of the Arena and handles any setting changes during the Scenario. Other CM Staff who are not DIRECTLY Involved in the scenario can and do fly.

I did do a lot of testing of the settings and Planes and Tactics we ended up using both offline and online with other CM's and both CO's and Command staffs and other Scenario pilots.

[Squire]

How well were the Zeros/F4Fs flown?
What types of fights?
Odds?
Experience on both sides?
Plain dumb luck???
Zeros hit by TBM gunners?
AAA?

Ect, ect ect ect ect.....you can go on to about 100 variables that we dont know. ***I will point out that in the BoB scenario the Hurricane had a better k/d than the 109E***. Proving what?

This is my position after fighting the A6M2 on many frames of the TODs, Snaps, in the CT, and at Midway scenario:

It is very close to its real life capabilities in AH, and there is absolutley nothing wrong with its modelling. The Zero A6M2 was a fine fighter, but it was not a superplane. I wish folks would stop expecting it to shoot down everything it encounters no matter what the circumstance or opposition!

Personally, I have a LOT of respect for Zeros when I fight them (and the pilots who regularily fly them) and I do not ever, underestimate them. To do so is folly.

Later.

P.S. I absolutely think the A6M3 should be added. We do need it, but it wasnt at Midway.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by jordi


Just in case you are not aware . . .

I am the Lead Designer and Head CM for the CLASH at MIDWAY - CM run Historical Scenario.

Oops.  I shoulda looked at your sig.   to your hard work in bringing it together.

When I've tested the aircraft it always seems that the F4F way exceeds the comments I've read about it from US and Japanese pilots.

[Vulcan]

Ummm I had no problem whatsoever with the A6M2.

3 kills, including one F4F from a 3 F4Fs vs 1 Zeke fight.

[brady]

The Funky plane set was a general refrence to all the planes and not just the Zero aganst the wildcat, I see how my initial statement might of given the impreshion that it was just about those two planes.

 My deschion not to attend was based on the whole plane set, and the paramiters of the set up and the time involved relative to the amount of action contained in that time. I have attended several Events in the past and had much fun, In this case I prety Much knew what to expect and I did not feal like spending all that time to fly in a contrived replay of an event in History that basicaly boiled down to Just dumb luck on the Part of the US.( and ULTRA)

 Somthing that you all should understand as a CT staffer I am constantly at odds over the Allied planes I have to Pit aganst the Japanese planes The A6M2 is most certainly not the Zero I would picked to put aganst the allied planes we receaved espichaly in the Slot whear a hug percentage of the battles we do in the CT take place. This Zero model issues is a small part of a larger Issue, incresing awarness of this is important for better set's and game play in the future. The intent of this post is directed toward that end and not ment to be a jab at the CM's for putting up a fine event of the size and scope that Midway is/was my personal reasions for not atending are just that, and have ltttle if nothing to with the issue at hand, other than perhaps pointing to plane ballance issues and models chosen to stand off aganst one another in general.

 I to would say that the Wildcat saems a little to handy, based on my reading's.

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

I did not perticapate in the battle but I can almost guess that many of the F4F pilots dove and ran if a zero got on thier six. If so......The full effect of this discovery (in real life) was not to be felt till the end of 1942, well after Midway. This is not to say that it wasnt used earlier but my guess would be that it wasnt, based on what I read in the books. Even at the Battle of Midway the allies new practically nothing about what the Zero was or was not capable of doing.

  In the course of the Aleutian operations (that led to Midway) the allies discovered a complete and only slightly damaged A6M2 that was ditched by Petty Officer Tadayoshi Koga in a marsh. Koga thought the ground to be firm but nosed over and was killed. By Oct 31, 1942 the weaknesses of this aircraft were discovered and new tactics were used to avoid the deadly turn fight.


The deadly turn fight!!
You must remember that the IJN pilots were already experianced fighter pilots by the time the US was involved in the war. The allied pilots new nothing of the capabilities of this new somewhat secret weapon the IJN had. The Japanese pilots had already encountered Martlets and Hurricains over the Indian Ocean with light losses, success was great!....hint hint!
The F4F-3 and F4F-4 were very close to the A6M2 and a zero pilot not being carfull in a turn fight could loose very easily. Both fighters were great turn fighters but the slightest slip in the F4F and the pilot lost( along with the sorry rear visability) . Not as bad for the A6M pilot but the A6M2 still had a slight turn fight advantage, therefore the allied pilot had to work a little harder and with not much if any combat experiance, allied pilots lost early on untill most IJN experianced fighters were killed ON THE CVs WHILE CVs GOT HIT, during Midway.

Pearl Harbor Speacial events are not accurate when allied pilots are allowd to take off early or even allowed to man Ack guns before the attack. This was the IJNs greatest advantage and is why the A6M was so greatly feared. It wasnt the plane, it was the way it was used along with the ignorance of the allies. The A6M was obsalete before it even started fighting.

The allies greatest advantage (for the purpose of this post) (diving and extending) was a tactic not widely used untill late 1942 early 1943. This canot be modeled in AH for early war set-ups.

Give us an honest set-up...handicap the allies ability to dive-extend or run.

The A6M3 had a greater roll advantage but turn radius was inferior to the A6M2, thus all you guys wanting the A6M3 will be shocked how much better the F4F will stick with you in the Turn Fight, however, it dives and climbs better than the A6M2 with a little better roll rate at higher speeds. With this extra speed, you may force an F4F into turn fight but again the F4F will have a better chance of gaining the advantage in a turn fight over the A6M3 rather than the A6M2!

As far as the allied planes being tanks and hard to shoot down.....read my signature!!

I VOTE BETTER IJN/A PLANES FOR BETTER GAMEPLAY!

[Karnak]

Curtiss,

The problem is that the F4F absorbs stupid amounts of fire.  It seems almost as though they over toughened it to set it off when compared to the A6M2.

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

Karnak I just dont really know any more. I know that many F4Fs returned home with big gapping cannon holes in thier fuselages and wings just to be junked. I also read where IJN pilots recall seldom using cannons claiming they sucked unless in really close without G forces and many kills came from just using the 7.7s. Also, cannons sucked while in a high G turn. Snap shots are practically usless. I think AH 7.7s are undermodeled and possibly the cannons are as well, not nessisarily the tuffness of the F4F, for say!

One thing I have learned is that I am told the books are wrong, the IJN/A pilots are liers, and allied pilots including IJN/A research pilots are/were GODS! Incorrect information or Bias?

To choose your side on the tuffness whatever the case, in Warbirds I had a kill streek alone in the A6M3 of 24 against F4Fs, P-40s, and a few slow F4Us (mostly turn fights with F4Fs and P-40s with a few sneek attacks on slow or sleeping F4Us- no vulches included. The A6M2 sucked and the A6M3 performed more like the A6M2 should have flown. Several good 500 yard hits and they went down easy. Same with good snap shot hits to the canopy, my favorite. Total kill streak in one TOD (A6M3 and Ki-84) I tallied up 28, maybe 32 kills, however, I bailed safe several times. In AH, canopy shots (pilot kills) dont exist for me.

In AH I have practially no kill streak in Zeros. F4Fs, turn fights and snap shots, are to hard kill but I dont know if its the tuffness or the guns. However, I think The A6M2 seams to perform correctly vs the F4F.

Absolutley nothing I know of is suppose to down right out turn a Zero. Untrue with WBs A6M2. AH A6M2 A/C looks good.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Karnak
Curtiss,

The problem is that the F4F absorbs stupid amounts of fire.  It seems almost as though they over toughened it to set it off when compared to the A6M2.

I fly the F4F-4/FM-2 on a regular basis. Yes, it is a very tough bird. But, so what? History shows us that no other allied aircraft could absorb more punishment than the Wildcat. None. You may ask why this was the case. The answer is can be summed up in a single sentence. Over-engineered, ultra-simple, well armored. Grumman had several test Wildcats survive 12.5 G sustained load pullouts with minimal damage to the aircraft, vitually no damage to the airframe. With the simplest of systems, there wasn't much to damage compared to the later, more sophisticated fighters.

Add to that the feeble 7.7 mm machine guns installed in early Japanese fighters, plus the relatively low lethality of the the 20 mm rounds, and you have a combination destined to frustrate any Zero pilot who is fortunate to bring his guns to bear.

That said, I have had no great difficulty shoot down Wildcats with Zeros. Yes, they absorb a great deal of ammunition. Nonetheless, they eventually go down. Now, if you are relying upon snapshots to kill a Wildcat, nothing less than four cannons will do that under most circumstances. With Wildcats, you had better saddle up and pour it in, or you will be disappointed in the result.

Maybe you can gain some perspective by flying the SBD for a while. It has just two .50 caliber MGs. It can out-turn the Wildcat, and you must expend a lot of ammo to get the kill. More than you will in the A6M2, that's for sure. Fortunately, it has a reasonable supply, meaning you should be able to get multiple kills.

I think that one must remember that the 6 fifties in the F4F-4 will shred a Zero in very short order. Indeed, the difference in killing power between the two is considerable.

My regards,

Widewing

[Vulcan]

Hmm, all interesting. But I beg to differ.

I engaged 3 F4Fs low with 7.7mm only. During the fight I saddled up on one, one disengaged, and the third seemed to lose visibility and wandered off. Earlier I had shot down a SBD and used up my cannon.

The fights generally operate at a lot closer range than your average MA fight, we turned quite a bit and I ended up between d50 and d100 chasing this kittie. In the end I was able to slap about 150-200 7.7mm rounds into his tail, I specifically aimed for his vators, managed to pop one, then shortly after the whole horizontal stab off.

Now I'm not a good shot, so a fair number of those rounds peppered nothing but fish.

I think the Zeke guns did a fine job, and 7.7mm's are much more usable simply because of the type of fight your average Zeke/F4F engage in.

[Matt1221b]

o i  love the zero, i was once flying this high alititude mission, with three other zeros in a close formation, and we saw 2 formations (6 planes) of b-26s, now we were high above the clouds and we could only see the red ID of them, so of course we slow down....get a little behind it, we tell one to slpit off infront of it to distract it, so he ducked below the clouds and said his last words, which were "here it goes" and thats all we heard from him...and we ducked below the clouds and started moving in
we were in deep cloud cover and he didnt see us

the first zero moved infront of it at about 2.0k away from the nose of the formations, the all went to the nose guns and starting spraying him with rounds, about 300 rounds later we we get them in sight, my wingman, hawk238, flips over and goes for the stabalizer, he shoots 100-150 rounds and gets the engine and a verticle stabalizer, one plane goes down...

now they know we are here....

we both split up and climb back up to about 15k ro sumtin like
that and we decide to split up and go for the sides, hes goes for the 1st formation i go for the second,

and we shoot down 5 out of the 6 planes.......the 1st zero is LONG gone and go shot about 10 miles back, hawk gets the radiator hit and my engine starts to smoke, we go to about 500 ft above sea level, that one bomber got out bomber hanger, but we most likley saved our team cause it was a 1 base per team map....


those zeros are very good to me they are my favorite, the only thing i dotn like about them is how far back you are in the cockpit and the color, i think grey or black would be better...but to make this long, boring story short, i love the zero it is very dependable and gets me outta tought situations...... the a6m5 is my Fav and the white one i dont use often, but hey....i have this on video if you ahve any doubts