Author Topic: Ignorant foreigners...  (Read 1004 times)

Offline SLO

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2002, 01:51:37 PM »
duh!!!


Where's London:D

damn limeys:eek:

running that way------>>>>

Offline Kanth

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2002, 01:53:01 PM »
I didn't fail to see your point, I disagreed with it.

My post addressed yours and pointed out that I think you are  wrong (about the personal attacks and him being a foreigner) and I posted why.

I also encouraged you to post why you think he's wrong without the personal attacks.

if you question his sources say so, or post some better sources or whatever..(just a suggestion)

even your post  to me was much less ferocious than I expected it to be I hope that is a sign of calming. (not changing yer mind, just calming)

If you feel you are defending someone, who is it? And did they ask you to?

Quote
Originally posted by Animal
You fail to see my point?

He uses the term "ignorant foreigners" when he fits that description himself, by exact definition.

He makes a post, addressing people as ignorant foreigners (funny, they are sitting at their homes in their own countries... how can they be foreigners?) and then rambles on as if he were the descendant of uncle sam.

I dont ever even use the word foreigner, but I made those posts only to give him a dose of his own medicine. He is being hypocritical and extremely bigoted, he may not be addressing me personally and I aknowledge his right to free speech, but guess what, I will use mine to openly defend the morals of the mayority of true good Americans as people of other countries see them.

Oh, and something tells me you are posting out of knee jerk reaction and paid no attention to what I said in this thread and others. You come here and tell us that we have to be sensitive about the feelings and opinions of a hateful, disrespectful bigot who dismisses logic and talks lies, and then poorly tries to back them with data that he pulled out of questionable sources.

I dont care if you agree with him or not, but dont tell me to respect and be sensitive to one of the most despicable persons I have met on this BBS.

 
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Offline Dingbat

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2002, 01:57:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Animal: By the way miko2d, arent you "Born, raised and served in the military in USSR. Currently a US citizen."
And now you are a full blown American using the term "foreigner" gratuitously?
Talk about hypocrisy.


 I reside here. I am a full citizen. I officially swore to defend to bear arms in defence of this country and I am capable of doing so. I pay taxes. I vote. US of A is my homeland - freely and deliberately chosen. I am just another productive immigrant in the "nation of immigrants".
 I am definitely not a foreigner here. So I see no hypocricy.

 In the post I did not use word "foreigner" as a derogatory term. I did not even use it towards american residents who do not have a full list of my credentials.

 I merely referred to people living in different countries than the one where discussion takes place.
 I seem make enough controvercial statement to make nonsensical nitpicking unnecessary.
 My point was that USA consists of many entities - states, localities, enclaves with wildly different cultures, ethnisities, laws, customs, etc. Many people living outside america do not seem to realise this.

 Incidentally, if you know anything about life and aducation in the USSR, how could I have become a racist there? If I became a racist - which means irrational dislike which is not at all true - what does that mean? Where did it come from?

 My carreer here was very successfull, so setbacks and jobs taken away by black are not good explanations.

Nash: Ok so ya didn't pay for the creation of this board, so you don't own it.
 You have a point. I assumed that this board was an american soil and it would be clear whom I referred to as "foreigners" - while I do not even know which country the HTC is incorporated in. I should have used different term than "foreigner" if only to avaid this commotion.
 But you can hardly accuse me of being xenofobic to non-american - since my profile clearly states I am an immigrant myself.
 Whatever animal claims, I just ment "foreigner" not current or past resident resident of USA.

Animal: We dont want people from other countries thinking that you represent us when in fact you dont.

 I thought we americans were too proud of our multiculturalism to even conceive of someone "representing" us.
 Anyway, "The Bell Curve" bestseller and also "The g Factor" and other books were written and published here by american scientists. I did not bring them here with me. The first I ever heard of black-white IQ discrepancy was in 1996, quite a few years after I came here.

 I do not have much regard to the "white supremacicts" - I do not believe that blacks or any other races are "evil". I believe that intelligence as any other non-discrete factor varies in populations that evolved separately over millenia.

 The whites are only smarter now because countless generations of our grand-grand... uncles and aunts failed to reproduce because of being less-intelligent than their brothers and sisters - our ancestors.
 Living conditions were very different and survival value of intelligence varied in various places. So the evolution went at different rates for different factors.

 Due to specifics of geography, climate and availoiabilty of certain resources and shortage of others, europeans and asians switched to urban/agrarian lifestyle which put premium on restraint, foresight and planning abilities and even literacy and made intelligence more important for survival/propagation.
 The sub-saharan africa stayed hunter-getherer and primitive cattle-herding till relatively recently, so the evolution pressures there were different.

 It's not just intelligence. People lived longer in civilised societies, were subjected to frequent epidemics, contaminants, relative abundance of food, especially fat, sugar and salt. At the same time physical strength was less important.
 So evolution was able to act on deseases like cancer that affect older people (while hunters-gatherers have little chance to grow older), immune system, food-related deseases, etc.
 "The Germs, Guns and Steel" by Jared Diamond is a good book - even though he does not make the evolutionary conclusion.

 Blacks are often physically stronger/faster than whites and have better reaction times but they do not have as many genes imparting resistance/immunity to plague (and AIDS), they much more often suffer from cancer, diabetes (diet), hypertension (exessive salt?), obesity (excessive sugar, fat absorbtion/craving, sedentary lifestyle), allergies (contaminants), more frequent low birth weight even in apparently healthy (and wealthy) mothers, etc. They did develop resistance to area-specific deseases like malaria which is not much help here. Those health issues obviously make conditions of blacks somewhat worse.

 There a dozens of known gene alleles that are exclusive to white or black races.

 Those differences are obvious - wealthy blacks suffer much more from those afflictions than whites. The medical literature is full of those and is not considered rasist. Why should intelligence be any different?
 Low-intelligence whites suffer from exactly the same social problems as lower-intelligence blacks.

-------------------------------------------------
In "Why Race Matters" Professor Michael Levin shows that the IQ difference between Europeans and black Africans has had more than enough time to develop during the estimated 4,400 generations since the two groups split from a common ancestor. According to his calculation,it would have required a rate of selection per generation of 0.000106 against recessive genes, a very small rate of genetic change that is the equivalent to a change in 11 individuals per 100,000 per generation. In nature this is an extremely slow rate of evolutionary change.
-------------------------------------------------

 Of course you do not seem interested in substantiation of anything said here - either you do not want to know or already know and forgot to mention your sources. Care to list them?


Cherlie: Take a hint......STFU.

 Sorry. My civil rights are in peril here. Because population of an african country behaves like a population of any other african country, my rights should somehow should be abridged - the right to equal treatment (quote systems), to speak freely (PC rules), to arm myself and many others.

 Even if I were really so stupid as to irrationally turn away a capable black applicant and hire less capable white for my business - thus benefitting non-racist, especially black-owned business, where is the harm to anyone but myself?

 I believe that welfare and preferential treatment destroyed black community and family here, not imaginary racism.

BTW, if there is no objective reason for disproportionate failure of blacks in free society of US - that means that whites along with asians and even hispanics are evil people specifically and irrationally hating blacks but not each other. I am not evan talking about Africa.

Wouldn't that be rasist to believe so? And offensive to whites who are sacrificing their rights and income to improve blacks' lot? You call that a sham effort?

How come liberal and black leaders - especially in black-populated and black dominated localities and school districts (Washington D.C.) with highest expence per pupil do not call for more eduation (like hispanics do) to bring blacks to the same standard as whites but call for lowering standards for blacks via preferential treatment?

Doesn't that mean they do not believe blacks are capable to succeed unassisted - ever? That there is no point trying to educate them?

Ponder those questions. Not everyone is an enemy who dumps on you...

miko


 miko



Bravo, I'm with miko on this one.

Offline Pongo

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2002, 02:06:13 PM »
these two can look after themselves..give em room! give em room!

Offline Animal

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2002, 02:15:20 PM »
Ferocious? more like condescending. None of my posts were ad-homs, I always had an arguement to back me up.

He calls others ignorant foreigners, I point out that he is also a foreigner, and an ignorant one at that. He IS a foreigner by the definition of the word, and he is ignorant too, because his whole data was already disproved by scientific research, so he is ignorant to the facts.

See? what I say is no less a personal attack than what he said.

He says blacks have a genetically higher tendency to be more agressive and less intelligent than whites, I point out that is completly false and that his sources are sketchy. Kanth, do you want me to pull my true scientific facts about the human genome that completly disprove his WHOLE racial arguement?

Who am I defending? maybe the millions of blacks (including ME) that miko believes and tries to prove tend to be less intelligent and more agressive than the white race (but he doesnt address anyone specifically, he says its generally, so it makes it OK! :rolleyes:  )

And he is not posting an opinion, he is posting what he strongly believes are facts.
When you say something, not as an opinion but as a fact, you are open to being corrected as ardously as anyone cares to, and I do.

And, as I already said that you seemed to ignore, his whole racial demographic data is completly un-scientific because it doesnt take into consideration that a HUGE percentage of the black population grows and lives in the less affluent parts of society, wich, as Nashwan pointed out, always tend to have a higher crime rate. It has NOTHING to do with genes, and a lot to do with psychology, sociology, and even political philosophy if you wanna go that deep.

Am I clearer now or are you gonna dismiss my post again and claim that I am ad-homing miko2d with no arguement to disprove his point?

:rolleyes:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2002, 02:20:19 PM by Animal »

Offline koala

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2002, 02:41:34 PM »
Quote
Ferocious? more like condescending. None of my posts were ad-homs, I always had an arguement to back me up.

:rolleyes:

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2002, 02:46:39 PM »
His post starts with "We Americans"

that makes it clear that non-americans are the foreigners he's speaking of, of which he is not one.

That's clear in the first two words of his first post.

no matter how strongly he believes his opinion to be, it's still his opinion. (you don't make facts by strongly believing in them, science isn't religion)

 If he presents facts with data to back them up, then it ceases to be his opinion. It then falls upon the people who collected and published that data.

Yes, I'd like to see where you are speaking from, if you have knowledge about the subject matter in this thread why don't you share it so we can see why you are saying what you are saying?

I have a fairly open mind, I'd like to see information from both sides, since you two have squared off.

If i were going to dismiss your posts, I wouldn't bother spending any time replying to you. I believe I've been fairly consistent in that behavior on these boards.

Has it occured to you that electing yourself to speak for millions based on skin color doesn't help your argument? I wouldn't presume to do that in any case.

Let me show you that I'm listening, you are saying that the crime level is due to poverty etc and not race. Show it. Why wouldn't you show that?

Now, why do all of these black people grow and live in the less affluent parts of society? Why is that?

btw, you are not clearer now, just still clear.


Quote
Originally posted by Animal
Ferocious? more like condescending. None of my posts were ad-homs, I always had an arguement to back me up.

He calls others ignorant foreigners, I point out that he is also a foreigner, and an ignorant one at that. He IS a foreigner by the definition of the word, and he is ignorant too, because his whole data was already disproved by scientific research, so he is ignorant to the facts.

See? what I say is no less a personal attack than what he said.

He says blacks have a genetically higher tendency to be more agressive and less intelligent than whites, I point out that is completly false and that his sources are sketchy. Kanth, do you want me to pull my true scientific facts about the human genome that completly disprove his WHOLE racial arguement?

Who am I defending? maybe the millions of blacks (including ME) that miko believes and tries to prove tend to be less intelligent and more agressive than the white race (but he doesnt address anyone specifically, he says its generally, so it makes it OK! :rolleyes:  )

And he is not posting an opinion, he is posting what he strongly believes are facts.
When you say something, not as an opinion but as a fact, you are open to being corrected as ardously as anyone cares to, and I do.

And, as I already said that you seemed to ignore, his whole racial demographic data is completly un-scientific because it doesnt take into consideration that a HUGE percentage of the black population grows and lives in the less affluent parts of society, wich, as Nashwan pointed out, always tend to have a higher crime rate. It has NOTHING to do with genes, and a lot to do with psychology, sociology, and even political philosophy if you wanna go that deep.

Am I clearer now or are you gonna dismiss my post again and claim that I am ad-homing miko2d with no arguement to disprove his point?

:rolleyes:
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Offline StSanta

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2002, 02:56:59 PM »
Bell curve blatant errors: interview with an expert on stats
http://www.skeptic.com/03.3.fm-sternberg-interview.html

The Bell Curve flattened:
http://www-thphys.physics.ox.ac.uk/users/AndrewRutenberg/FILES/IQ.html

I have more. Mio2d, the Bell Curve was based on flawes assumptions and mininterpretations of data, and on deliberate lies.

Offline mrfish

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2002, 03:08:22 PM »
how will you ever know if race plays a significant role in anything if no one can study it honestly?

the current paradigm is that you can't attribute anything negative to a racial group - only positive things.

if you dare make a conclusion that would hurt someone's feelings it's immediately dismissed. that's great for making people feel good about themselves but it doesn't seem to help the search for reality much -

ex: if it works out factually that one race commits more crimes you simply adjust the explanation to accommodate that - displacing the blame to some other factor.

if the most likely conclusions are automatically off the table as possibilities it doesn't leave much to study.

i have to give miko some credit (yet again) for having an unpopular viewpoint despite our obvious 'problem areas' ;)

Offline Animal

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2002, 03:20:03 PM »
Quote
Yes, I'd like to see where you are speaking from, if you have knowledge about the subject matter in this thread why don't you share it so we can see why you are saying what you are saying?

I have a fairly open mind, I'd like to see information from both sides, since you two have squared off.

If i were going to dismiss your posts, I wouldn't bother spending any time replying to you. I believe I've been fairly consistent in that behavior on these boards.

Has it occured to you that electing yourself to speak for millions based on skin color doesn't help your argument? I wouldn't presume to do that in any case.

Let me show you that I'm listening, you are saying that the crime level is due to poverty etc and not race. Show it. Why wouldn't you show that?

Now, why do all of these black people grow and live in the less affluent parts of society? Why is that?

btw, you are not clearer now, just still clear.



LOL, I know where you are coming from, and I know when someone tries to hide their feelings behind logic.

But for the sake of entertainment, I will put as much scientific information on the table as I can find online. Though most of my sources come from books and college.

But of course all the information I posted you have already discredited because you believe science is all faith.  LOL

I will only post links because there is simply too much text to fit into one thread. I understand that you are not as interested in these studies as you are in trying to discredit me for the single reason that I am arguing something that you very probably believe (thought you may not admit it. with all the personal attacks going in this bbs, that you chose this thread, and to argue with me on this issue)

What all this data will tell you, in a sentence:  studies have shown that as much as 85% of all human variation occurs between individuals of the same population while less than 10% of the variation was between the major races.

And I find silly that you ask me to bring some kind of proof that the less affluent neiborghs and comunities in America are populated mostly by minorities (blacks, hispanics, etc). Are you serious? that would be like asking me to prove that middleclass suburban america is populated by whites in mayority. Its the obvious truth and anyone who lives in America knows this.

On racial diferences and the human genome projet:
http://racerelations.about.com/library/weekly/aa021501a.htm


http://www.msm.edu/Health_Disparities/wkshop5/hp12.htm
http://www.the-scientist.com/asp/Registration/login.asp?redir=http://www.the-scientist.com/yr1996/nov/notebook_961111.html (requieres registration but its a good site, get one)
http://www.mndaily.com/daily/2000/07/05/editorial_opinions/o0705/
http://www.georgetown.edu/research/nrcbl/scopenotes/sn17.html
http://vulab.ias.unu.edu/GlobalEthos/papers/minakshi.html

Here are some books that would enlighten you on the sobject, if you really mean business when you say you want to see both sides, you will go thru the trouble of aquiring them. But I will not open them, scan them to put data in this thread, that is up to you, I feel I have done enough.

The Human Genome

The Intelligent Genome

The Common Thread

Faith and opinion will never be good substitutes for good old science. The NAZIs tried very hard to go against this on this very issue but all they ended up was swimming in their own roadkill.

I'm tired of repeating myself here, why dont we change swords; you and miko2d try to disprove modern genetic studies and its findings, and I defend them? Because its very hard to convince people on a subject they seem to be ignorant of.
So, YOU prove to ME, with scientific data (not roadkill polls) that miko's data on racial specific behaviour is correct.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2002, 03:24:19 PM by Animal »

Offline Animal

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2002, 03:29:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
how will you ever know if race plays a significant role in anything if no one can study it honestly?

the current paradigm is that you can't attribute anything negative to a racial group - only positive things.
 


No, the problem is that neither positive or negative things have been found on this issue. In fact it is a non issue, but people on both sides keep TRYING to make it one.

According to modern genetic studies there is simply no way that there can be a difference between races when it comes to behaviour. There is no black or white when it comes to this.

You can tell me that you believe blacks are more agresive, or score less IQ (wich is a skewed test),  because they are brought up to be that way, or because of their culture, and that you dislike them because of that, and I will accept that.

But not this.

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2002, 04:01:12 PM »
Now you have posted links to back up your position, was that so hard?

If you think I ask for too much, just say so.  It's up to you what you post. I can imagine you not wanting to hunt around for stuff to back up what you say. It's tedious.

You could have just well told me to f off. :)

I would change swords with you but I never had the sword you are trying to give to me. Miko doesn't speak for me or my race as far as I know.

I merely said he's not a foreigner and that your behavior didn't help your argument. Which is true.

Quote

And I find silly that you ask me to bring some kind of proof that the less affluent neiborghs and comunities in America are populated mostly by minorities


that's not what I asked for. I asked why so many blacks (a higher percentage of total population than whites I'm guessing from what you said) live in less affluent neighborhoods.

I'm certainly not saying that poverty is only a problem for blacks because that's simply not true.

Quote
Originally posted by Animal

I'm tired of repeating myself here, why dont we change swords; you and miko2d try to disprove modern genetic studies and its findings
 


As far as my motivation, well I'd like to see the personal attacks stop. They are, as many have said, the last resort when you have no valid argument. They are boring and they look ignorant.

As far as this being the only personal attack thread I've made a response to that isn't true. It's however the only one where I didn't think the person involved deserved a private email.

This explanation wasn't owed you, btw, it was given out of the kindness of my black heart.
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Offline mrfish

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« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2002, 04:06:20 PM »
none of those things adequately explain our commonsense observations enough though. while stereotypes aren't ever 100% accurate they aren't arbitrary either

i don't know enough about genetics to properly defend or attack it's conclusions but i  have working eyeballs and a good memory and to say we all pan out the same is silly.

everyone notices racial differences despite years of training not to. the first thing i see in the morning and the last thing i see at night is someone with a flat nose and beautiful slanty eyes - i've spent a lot of time thinking about it-  it's a trip- we're nowhere near the same but we have a great and honest respect for each other's races.

'superior' is really subjective is the problem, as much as one race succeeds at one thing it fails at another. it'd be near impossible to call an over-all winner in the superiority contest but to say they can't be different disregards observation.

even in strict things like the path of an electron through some kind of field or something - it rarely turns out like it is 'supposed to' that's the beauty of science mac - don't bust your head open worrying about it -   your argument is sensible i just don't agree.

Offline Skuzzy

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Ignorant foreigners...
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2002, 10:06:09 AM »
I thinks its time to start moving some folks off this board.
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