Author Topic: Absolutely Spot On! Read this and please keep it civil!!!  (Read 562 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Absolutely Spot On! Read this and please keep it civil!!!
« on: November 08, 2002, 05:25:18 AM »
USNEWS AND WORLD REPORT

Culture & Ideas 11/4/02
BY JOHN LEO
Leaving the left behind


Everywhere you turn these days someone on the left is denouncing President Bush as Hitler, Satan, a terrorist, or a tyrannical emperor. A Yale law professor said Bush is "the most dangerous person on Earth." A famous editor referred to Bush as "a lawn jockey" and "Pinocchio," magically transformed into a "great leader" by 9/11.

 
Some of the angry rhetoric flirts with the fringe idea that the United States planned the terrorist attacks. A Purdue professor said that "there is no ground to be certain" that America and Israel aren't behind the 9/11 attacks. A Columbia law professor compared 9/11 to the Reichstag fire in Nazi Germany–Bush is not responsible for 9/11, the professor said, but he exploited a national disaster to suspend civil liberties, just like Hitler. A Berkeley professor helpfully pointed out that some Indonesian groups think the United States planned the Bali bombing.

The rhetoric accurately reflects the current condition of much of the left–bitter, stymied, alienated, politically impotent, full of loathing for America and the West, and totally unable to address the crisis wrought by 9/11, except to imply (or say) that the United States deserved to be attacked. The left has lost its bearings, Michael Walzer, the political philosopher, wrote in the spring issue of Dissent, the leftist magazine he edits. His article, "Can There Be a Decent Left?" deplored "the barely concealed glee" of the left's reaction to 9/11 and a lack of "any visible concern" about how to prevent terrorism in the future.

"Many left intellectuals live in America like internal aliens," he wrote, "refusing to identify with their fellow citizens, regarding any hint of patriotic feeling as politically incorrect. That's why they had such difficulty responding emotionally to the attacks of September 11 or joining in the expressions of solidarity that followed." The favorite posture of many American leftists, he said, is "standing as a righteous minority, brave and determined, amid the timid, the corrupt, and the wicked. A posture like that ensures at once the moral superiority of the left and its political failure." He said the left needs to discard its "ragtag Marxism" and its belief that America is corrupt beyond remedy.

Standing for murder. Solidarity with people in trouble is the most profound commitment that leftists make, Walzer said, but even the oppressed have obligations, and one is to avoid murdering innocent people. "Leftists who cannot insist upon this point, even to people poorer and weaker than themselves, have abandoned both politics and morality for something else." An example of that abandonment came at the University of Michigan's pro-Palestinian conference October 12-14, which could not bring itself to criticize suicide bombings. Save us from moral appeals that leave room for blowing up families in supermarkets.

Journalist Christopher Hitchens resigned from the Nation magazine after 20 years, citing its antiwar stance on Iraq. Saddam Hussein, he wrote in his farewell column, is "a filthy menace" and "there is not the least doubt that he has acquired some of the means of genocide and hopes to collect some more." He thought the Nation had become "the echo chamber of those who truly believe that John Ashcroft is a greater menace than Osama bin Laden." In another article, he wrote, "I can only hint at how much I despise a left that thinks of Osama bin Laden as a slightly misguided anti-imperialist. . . . Instead of internationalism, we find among the left now a sort of affectless, neutralist, smirking isolationism" and "a masochistic refusal to admit that our own civil society has any merit."

Ron Rosenbaum of the New York Observer said Hitchens "forced a lot of people on the left to confront their blind spot, their on-bended-knee obeisance to anyone in the Third World who posed as a 'liberator,' from Mao to Castro to Arafat and the Taliban." Rosenbaum's comments came in an article on his own defection, "Goodbye, All That: How Left Idiocies Drove Me to Flee." One trigger: A well-respected academic said he welcomed 9/11 because it gave Americans a chance to reassess their past honestly, as Germans did in the 1960s. "I couldn't take it anymore," Rosenbaum wrote. "Goodbye to all that . . . the inability to distinguish between America's sporadic blundering depredations" and Hitler's Germany. Goodbye to the refusal to admit that "Marxist genocides" slaughtered some 20 million to 50 million people in Russia, China, and Cambodia. And goodbye to the "peace marches" like the one in Madrid where women wore suicide-bomber belts as bikinis. " 'Peace' somehow doesn't exclude blowing up Jewish children," Rosenbaum wrote.

We owe a debt to Walzer, Hitchens, and Rosenbaum. Now, will their articles make any difference to our hyperalienated left?

Offline Dowding (Work)

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Absolutely Spot On! Read this and please keep it civil!!!
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2002, 06:13:53 AM »
And your point is...? That right wing journos write anti-left crap and that left wing journos write anti-right crap?

Read it all before, I'm afraid. Thanks for the 'insight'.

_____________________________ __________________

Imagine there is a witty, self-flattering, self-agrandising remark in this spot!

It's all the UN's fault always! And the myriad Balkan war crimes were committed by Dutch troops working for Milosevic and Karadic!

AH player "Grunherz" actually believes George W. Bush is above reproach!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2002, 06:17:31 AM by Dowding (Work) »

Offline takeda

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2002, 06:19:31 AM »
I could rebate most of that point by point... but I'm very lazy... is just another attempt to climb from the muddy pit off international politics into the moral high ground... only to start peeing on the pit until the mud reachs you again...

Deal with it... honestly you can only choose your shade of gray mud, black and white stink of rotting corpses.

So Castro is this and that, but Pinochet and all those military Juntas where a "neccesary evil" "our bastards" and such things.

Suicide bombers are pure evil, but lobbing a Hellfire on a busy market or repelling stonethrowers with .50 cal fire are valid anti-terrorist policies.

I don't think you can find an honest social-democrat thinker (What a term!) supporting any of that, one way or the other.

Ok... i'll stop, nothing new to tell or to do really, you can continue the chest thumping and club waving as the guys of the other tribe are doing, i'll just try to avoid getting a crack in my skull when the BS starts flying.

Offline senna

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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2002, 06:27:35 AM »
Just goes to show you what people would try to do to kill you. Sighs, good thing this isnt about real bullets and simply words. People can write about anything they want and if your dumb enough to believe it, then your just dumb. Hows that for a reality check.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2002, 06:28:09 AM »
"Imagine there is a witty, self-flattering, self-agrandising remark in this spot!

It's all the UN's fault always! And the myriad Balkan war crimes were committed by Dutch troops working for Milosevic and Karadic!

AH player "Grunherz" actually believes George W. Bush is above reproach!"

I'm flattered...  :)

Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2002, 06:30:51 AM »
I aim to please.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2002, 06:34:32 AM »
Dowding, you have a nice signature :)

Grun, just a question:

Where is the line between "Patriotism" and "Nationalism"?

For the rest of the post: Yawn.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2002, 06:44:52 AM »
I have no doubt you see yourself above this article naso...

As for your question, I dont see how it applies in this situation. Would you ask this question during the London Blitz?  "Pardon me Mr. Smith, do you think your anger towards German terror bombing of London is patriotic or nationalistic."  The distiction is irrelevant in such a case.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2002, 07:12:29 AM »
I know, it's irrelevant to the thread.

And this Dem-Rep bashing it's something that can interest only an US citizen (well, maybe the USA foreign politics can be different).

Anyway, the question I've made, it's the thing that have always amazed me to know about the US citizens, expecially the Rep/right people like you, and, since you promised to keep the things civil, I asked the question hoping in a civil discussion instead of the usual flamefest.

BTW, now that i reread the article, the question arise easily, since, for me, it is on the edge, maybe a little out of the patriotic.

Offline bounder

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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2002, 07:28:22 AM »
Who is this 'Left' that the article keeps talking about. It's like the author believes that there is only one political axis, left -> right.
What if I were to tell you that there are at least two other politcal axes with their own extremes.

As a polemic, it lacks outrage. As an article it is devoid of much other than opinion, so can be expected to reflect the politcal composition of the author. (rightwing good, left wing baa-aad)

As for Hitchens, he is never happier than when people are disagreeing with him. He's a gadfly, truly in the Socratic sense.

His leaving the Nation was due to a shift in his worldview, not theirs. He's never been a multiculturalist, and after 110901 he invented the phrase 'Islamo-Fascism', neatly lumping all adherents of a religion together with a political ideology. Of course, he's an experienced journalist who avoid crass generalisations.

I would have thought the lesson of 110901 would be that extremism in all its forms should be watched very carefully.

Kind of reminds me of Bertrand Russell's game of Irregular Verbs, you know the one:

I am Sparkling
You are Unusually Talkative
He is Drunk

I have clear political vision
You are single minded
He is an extremist.

I am a fighter ace
You are a Dweeb
He is a cheat

Offline ra

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Absolutely Spot On! Read this and please keep it civil!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2002, 07:39:16 AM »
Why are so many Euros responding to this article?  It is specfically about the American left, not the highly advanced European left.  :rolleyes:

It hits the nail right on the head.

BTW, I agree with Bounder about Hitchens being a gadfly.

ra

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2002, 07:47:28 AM »
Its early in the USA ra, Europe is allready well into the day.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2002, 07:50:38 AM »
Thank you ra, your contribute it's higly appreciated.

Grun, please, next time put a sign in your thread "only for US citizen", maybe with a note "since at least 5 generations".

This BBS was so open in the past times, I wonder what changed that, 9-11??

Scratch another victory, Osama, you damn mot....ker.

(oh, and on a side note: Maybe so much Euros because its 2-3 PM here, while in USA there's a lot of people commuting to work and then not able to respond, but this need to much reasoning, uh?)

Offline Naso

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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2002, 07:52:16 AM »
LOL Grun, we overlaped the answer....

Oh, my GOD!!!

Me and Grun....

the same answer???



;)
:D

Offline senna

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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2002, 07:56:06 AM »
>Where is the line between "Patriotism" and "Nationalism"?

Patritism has * whereas Nationalism does not.

* is whatever you want it to be.