The reason you can't shoot a bomber down is because your not German.

[lazs1]

amon... as u say "IMO"... yours seems to be that this is a sim with land grab as the most important thing... logic wuld dictate that you were wrong since MOST players are flying fighters when they could be dong a lot more for the whole land grab issue (and a whole lot easier) by simply dropping a few laser guided bombs at "spoiler" targets also...

How did you check my stats?  was it for the current tour or overall?  don't really care that much but it sure seems that overall I kill a lot more buffs than kill me.   If not then I will restate to.... "i kill more buffs than kill me".  Truth is.... I don't try very hard... they are simply a lousy target... no fun at all.   Very gamey.   sometimes I will ded six one or attack with no chance of survival if it is at my alt and close to dropping bombs but I canb usually tell how bored i am by the fact that I'm even attacking a buff.... I bet my stats show that I fight one buff for every couple hundred fighters.
lazs

[lazs1]

amon....LOL! I am at work and bored so I checked your "5 star rating" and found that only one person had voted.... wonder who it was?  
lazs

[Am0n]

Westy
 The statement "wrong." is in refernce to actual fact, not opinion.

 So in a essence you are saying my beliefs are wrong, what i feal is right for me is not..
You my friend are wrong, i do indeed belive what i stated is true, being my opinon makes it correct.

Im done with this argument, you may continue alone.
----


Continuing on the topic i think your correct in saying the ones who complain are the ones who dont know the proper way to attack a bomber or bomber group.

I find the most successful attacks made on me when um gunning is the ones who pick and pick at you from different angles. I think the worst thing you can do is try to fly in and take the buff down in one burst, this may work sometimes but general not effective.  

Come in and make a snap shot and break away.

The more you hang out at a safe distance and "tease" the gunner the more nervous/impatient and likely he is going to try somehting rash to get you, thus its likely he'll screw up when you  finnaly make a pass.

Heck most the time when you sit back 1.5k-2k and dive in and out at them you can get the gunner to burn most (if not all) his ammo before you actualy make a move.

[Westy MOL]

"what i feal is right for me is not.."

 Wrong again.    You tried to state WHAT the focus of AH was not what it was for you or what you think it should be.

 Westy

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Am0n]

lol

i dont care about my rating, meaningless.

I checked your stats on the AH web site. Stats dont lie, only people with inferiority complexes do..

Jeesh i even said you had a great fur balling record! just leave the buffs alone.  

[Apache]

Can't let this one slide. Lazs is a squaddie after all  

Am0n, if you are going to use stats, use them all, not just the ones that support your argument.

Just go back a few more tours. Lazs stats just against the B17:

Tour 20 5-4
Tour 19 17-6
Tour 18 13-1
 35 kills to 11 deaths. Looks like alot more kills to me.

[Am0n]

Originally posted by Am0n:

  "this is my opinion of course, you are intitled to yours...."

 The point of this sim is to take feilds, not get kills IMO. furhter more than taking feilds, have fun, the thrill of the hunt. Or the thrill of penetrating enemy lines and flying a bomber group deep in enemy territory, making a hit and making it home.

 

Originally posted by Westy MOL:
"what i feal is right for me is not.."

 Wrong again.      You tried to state WHAT the focus of AH was not what it was for you or what you think it should be.

 Westy

Hurmm... Read much?


-------

Apache

you are correct, i shoulda looked back further if i was going to use stats to argue. I was not trying to belittle Lazs, but it just struck me as very odd at first glance to here someone with seemingly so little experience/success fighting bombers make such biased statements about fighting them and there usefulness..

I stand corrected!  

[Westy MOL]

Apache don't try and confuse the issue with the facts.


 My "bad" for I took his "IMO" to be a supportive for the rest of his post backing up what I took for a black and white statment on what AH was supposed to be. My apologies Am0n.

 Westy

[Qnm]

I'll have a Vodka and Red Bull.

Oh this isn't the bar? Damnit.

[Am0n]

Westy,
Np at all, this happens when 2 opinionated people like our selves clash.  


Heres how i look at games, they are art through and through.

 With art, if it is truely art and not something you can pick up at Kmart in the home decor section, you can make a broad assumtion at what the artist was trying to portray, or at Kmart you got the "in your face" "this is what it is" painting of barns and old bridges.
 Then you got Dali and Van Gogh who created imagry that is very stimulating.

Aces High = The Stary Night (Van Gogh)

Quake3 = Kmart barns and bridges (who gives a rats ass)

 What im getting at is in a game like Aces High there is more to it than meets the eye, this is truely a work of art in every manner. They allow you to make your own opinion and work with it on those terms.
 to the contrary of other "Art" where you just walk around and point/click, point/click.. few arguments can be made at the meaning of that "art".

lol i hope this makes sense, i got so symbolic that i almost didnt understand what i was saying..  

[Qnm]

Q3A is as good/fun/artistic/etc as AH, and vice versa.
I also like to put oranges as much as to put apples in what I cook.

[Wotan]

blauk

I used to hunt buffs all the time and agin I've kiled 7 b17s in one sortie no rearm in a 109g6.

Go read those other threads. I've posted several instances where I've killed 6 lancs ib a base they gave up and came back in spits to deack it. I killed them too. And about them time I killed milkrunning buffs ib a city at 3k. The same guys over and over.

Like I told hans go back and reread those threads so you can understand the points that were made there. You like hans are simply make staements that are/were irrelevant to the previous discussions.

Folks before you post a opinion on a subject it would help if you actually read up on what the discussion was about.

[Buzzbait]

S!

Actually Hans is both right and wrong.

The Germans did not count a 4 engined bomber kill as four kills for kill total purposes, but they did 4 engined bombers as more important as a criteria for awarding medals.

For the purposes of awarding the more important German medals, ie. the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves, etc, a four engined bomber counted as much as shooting down 4 other aircraft.

For example, by the end of the war, the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves normally required 100 victories in the air for it to be awarded.  However, a pilot who shot down 25 4 engined bombers would also qualify.

So Hans is correct there.

As far as USAAF bomber crews shooting down more German fighters than USAAF escorts...

Nope.

The Bomber crews put in claims for a lot more German aircraft shot down, but studies after the war showed they were overclaiming at a rate of approximately 10 claims for each actual kill.

The Fighter Jocks were also overclaiming, (all nation's Fighter Pilot's overclaimed) but by a factor of around 1.5-1 or 2-1.

If the Bomber crews claims were accurate, the Luftwaffe Fighter force would have ceased to exist around December '43.

[Tac]

WRONG Buzzbait! The german He111 and Ju88 DID wipe out the RAF on their first 2 sorties. Them ubermensch made great gunners!

   

[Buzzbait]

S!

Also, the Germans did not attack from all directions.

A typical attack happened from ahead and slightly higher than the bombers.  (Hence the familar warning shout and Hollywood Movie:  "Twelve O'clock High!")  This was because the earlier model B-17's did not have a chin turret and were most vulnerable to attacks from the front.  The attackers preferred to come in slightly high, because it made the bomber gunners adjust for deflection.  The Fighters had much bigger targets so deflection wasn't as much of a problem.  The B-17 cockpit was the bullseye aiming point.

The Germans would come in a wave, flying abreast so the maximum number of guns could be brought to bear.  Typically there would be around 20-40 German fighters in an attack.

100 yards from the bombers, the fighters would break down and to the side so as to avoid flying right through the formation.

There were a lot of headon collisions due to pilots being killed in the cockpit, or misjudging their closing speed.

One B-17 flew home with a Me109 INSIDE the fuselage.  It hit below the cockpit and travelled up the fuselage interior of the bomber before it came to rest.

The Germans would try to reform for another attack.  Typically though, if there were escorts present, they were on the Germans at that point and they'd have to fight their way home.

Later in the war the heavily armoured special attack "Sturmbock"  190A8's would attack from the rear.

The Me262's almost always attacked from the rear.   Their closing speed was too high for a frontal attack.

They'd come up behind the bomber formation at their level, dive through the escorts to a point below the bombers, then zoom up behind them for a snap shot.