Author Topic: Fighter kill stats from Burma: (Read 2339 times)

Widewing · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2003, 05:24:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps, historically, the Japanese faced P40Es in Burma with A6m2s. I don't know.

In April of 1942, the AVG began receiving P-40Es to supplement their Tomahawks.

There were no Zeros in Burma. This is because only the JAAF was active there. By April of '42, most fighter units were flying the Ki-43-I. However, it was slower than the A6M2, although a bit more maneuverable. Where it really fell short was in guns. Just a pair of 7.7mm machine guns where all they had in the face of six fifties of the 50 mph faster P-40Es.

If we had the Ki-43-I in here, things would only be worse.

My regards,

Widewing

ergRTC · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2003, 06:09:08 PM »

what do you mean by worse? worse for the ijaaf? I just had a ball with a zero over in burma. I think they are a bit too uber for the p40b. I think it should be the oscar, but I can not even imagine what a more maneuverable plane than the a6m2 would be like. The only thing that keeps this from a true slaughter is the little cannon rounds the zero hauls.

I think I agree with the p40e addition now, as it stands, the allies dont stand much of a chance against smartly flown zeros.

Anyway, if its terrible after we add them, drop them again on wednesday.

Widewing · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2003, 12:39:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ergRTC
what do you mean by worse? worse for the ijaaf? I just had a ball with a zero over in burma. I think they are a bit too uber for the p40b. I think it should be the oscar, but I can not even imagine what a more maneuverable plane than the a6m2 would be like. The only thing that keeps this from a true slaughter is the little cannon rounds the zero hauls.

I think I agree with the p40e addition now, as it stands, the allies dont stand much of a chance against smartly flown zeros.

Anyway, if its terrible after we add them, drop them again on wednesday.

Much worse for JAAF. A6M2 is little more than a target for P-40E. It's bog slow, has weak guns in comparison and P-40E is better climber using WEP. In short, flying the P-40E like it should be flown, it will easily overpower the Zero. The only reason the Zero is successful against the P-40B is because guys insist on turn fighting with the Zeke. Hell, I shot down 10 Zeros with an SBD tonight, 11 if we count one that crashed after I did! I set it on fire and turned away expecting it to crash, but it didn't explode and managed to knock off my horizontal stab before it blew up. That was my error, I should have finished it. The SBD can't climb and can manage but 250 mph. But, it has good guns and can turn with the Zero at speeds above 200 mph. In exchange for those 11 Zeros and a Ki-67, and 7 assists, I lost just that one SBD to enemy aircraft.

If a pilot takes the time to learn how to use the SBD or the P-40B, they could easily generate a terrific score.

I can hardly wait to get the P-40E.

Take my word for it, the A6M2 is a dog... It's only a threat if you get slow, real slow. So, as long as guys try to stallfight with the Zero, it'll score kills. As soon as they wise up, the Zero is a non-factor.

It's all about tactics and fighting to your strengths. The Zero has but one strength, turning. Avoid that and it's near to useless against a fast fighter.

My regards,

Widewing

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2003, 01:04:52 AM »

As we have it in AH the A6M2 really sucks vs its contemporararies the F4F4 and P40E - I cant imagine why they caused such a concern for the US Navy and Army Air Corps early in the war if the real ones were anything like in AH.

bowser · « **Reply #19 on:** February 16, 2003, 09:13:57 AM »

I think most guys realize that if you fly the P40B right they'll live, but folks want kills also. With the weak guns you can't BnZ and get kills, just a lot of assists. Most people (not the experten) have to saddle up and fill them with lead to get kills. Of course, then you are slow and easy meat for somebody else. Can't have it both ways I guess. Sounds like the P40E is the answer to this problem if others are correct.

bowser

ergRTC · « **Reply #20 on:** February 16, 2003, 09:30:43 AM »

Widewing, if your knocking zekes out of the air with an sbd, I think you need to realize your flying against guys not paying much attention.

Keep the fight vertical, and that a6m2 is a killer, hell any equal e fight and the zero has it.

as it stands

zero 38 kills of sbd
sbd 20 kills of zero

zero 233 kills of p40b
p40b 143 kills of zero

a6m2 192 kills of hurricane
hurri 174 kills of zero

in the little time I have had up I have killed
3 p40s
and 3 hurricanes

Killed once by a p40
and so embarassed, but 2 by a hurricane. One of those was a collision with the shattered remnants of the plane I just blew to shreds, but I guess that still counts.

After flying this map, as a zero, I dont see any issues with adding the p40e.

brady · « **Reply #21 on:** February 16, 2003, 12:10:27 PM »

The primary reasion I suported Jarbo in his deschion to add the P40E was that, despite what Widewing has stated which is true insomuch as if the planes were used to their strengths, fact of the mater is 90% of the time they are not, and that is why the Zero does so well, Another thing we nead to consider is that when some skilled players acheave huge kill streaks it is not nessarly reflective of the total player base, Moot has landed 15 kill streaks in the 202 in the MA aganst 1944 fighters but that doesent mean the 202 should be perked, or that it is uber and the planes it faught aganst were not. ergRTC's list paints a better picture while numbers can at times be misleading, i think based on the figures for the past set up that they are right whear I expected them to be, despite the spead advantage the P40B has. My assesment of the "E" being added is that a narowing of the Zero's Advantage will occure in the overall K/D scale, with neiteher having a big increase over the other in terms of K/D.

Sakai · « **Reply #22 on:** February 17, 2003, 09:43:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by brady
The primary reasion I suported Jarbo in his deschion to add the P40E was that, despite what Widewing has stated which is true insomuch as if the planes were used to their strengths, fact of the mater is 90% of the time they are not,

Exactly, you can't complain about K/D ratios if they are reflective of skillful piloting. Widewing killing several zekes in an SBD is telling. I think the gravest difference is the 6 .50s of the E model--all the other fighters are well matched in terms of firepower they are all fairly anemic. But those 6 .50s should shred the Japanese planes. The Zeke can always out turn the E model, but without the ability to shoot back, that might turn things toward the P-40 side.

Sakai

Sakai · « **Reply #23 on:** February 17, 2003, 09:46:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
Much worse for JAAF. A6M2 is little more than a target for P-40E. Take my word for it, the A6M2 is a dog... It's only a threat if you get slow, real slow. So, as long as guys try to stallfight with the Zero, it'll score kills. As soon as they wise up, the Zero is a non-factor.

It's all about tactics and fighting to your strengths. The Zero has but one strength, turning. Avoid that and it's near to useless against a fast fighter.

My regards,

Widewing

I tend to agree. When I was flying Japanese iron we simply dragged the Hurris and P-40s to the deck and killed them there in a mass circle. But if those guys stayed at alt and used hit and run, they wore us out. My experience as an allied pilot confirms those impressions.

What would a K-61/A6M2 versus F4F and P-40E setup be like?

Sakai

Sabre · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2003, 10:13:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sakai
I tend to agree. When I was flying Japanese iron we simply dragged the Hurris and P-40s to the deck and killed them there in a mass circle. But if those guys stayed at alt and used hit and run, they wore us out. My experience as an allied pilot confirms those impressions.

What would a K-61/A6M2 versus F4F and P-40E setup be like?

Sakai

I had that exact set up in a Slot map some time back. Pretty even fight, I thought.

Sabre
CT Staff

ergRTC · « **Reply #25 on:** February 17, 2003, 10:59:51 AM »

it was.

jarbo · « **Reply #26 on:** February 17, 2003, 11:14:12 AM »

I really enjoy the dialogue here about P40b vs Zeke and effect of the P40e inclusion. Eskimo thank you for doing the stats. I am gonna stick with the P40e inclusion and watch how it effects the arena and gameplay. Some excellent points have been made above about how adding the P40e may screw up the balance beyond what is acceptable. As always, if I see that this change destabilizes the arena, I will make adjustments at that time.

To you all to contributing to the process of CT setups
Jarbo
CT Staff

Widewing · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2003, 11:57:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ergRTC
Widewing, if your knocking zekes out of the air with an sbd, I think you need to realize your flying against guys not paying much attention.

Keep the fight vertical, and that a6m2 is a killer, hell any equal e fight and the zero has it.

I've killed 12 Zekes for 1 loss to them (although a proxy or two may be in the stats). That loss was due to turning my back on Leviathn's Zero, which I had set on fire and assumed that it would go straight in. It didn't. Lev blew up seconds later. So, if we count that one, it's 13/1.

They guys I killed saw me coming, there just wasn't butkus they could do about it. Above 150 mph, the SBD can turn with the Zero. At speeds above 300 mph, it owns the Zero. Only in a stallfight does the Zero have the edge.

In a a Co-alt fight, the Zero's speed allows it to extend. But if both are doing around 250, the SBD will reverse faster. As a dogfighter, the SBD is superior to the P-40B, considerably so. Believe it or not, the SBD retains energy better than the P-40B.

So, get above a Zero and he's in a world of hurt.

There are several secrets to dogfighting with the SBD, it is capable of things no fighter can match. Once a pilot learns how to exploit these, the SBD becomes quite formidable. I've killed F4U-4s, La-7s and Doras with it. Furthermore, I'm not an exceptional pilot. But, I know the tactics and I have the patience to employ them. Anyone can do what I do, if they are willing to learn how. Just in case anyone wonders, I know how to exploit the Zero's ability as well, going 11/1 so far. Again, it's all about understanding the tactics required and applying them. There's no mysterious tricks, no gamey stuff, and surely no great flying ability. Indeed, if talent were a real factor, I'd be at the bottom of the pile.

As to the P-40s, I've flown a few sorties with them, 13/0 so far. I will never turnfight with a Zero. He's gonna have to fight they way I want, and that means fast, fast, and fast some more.

The bottom line is this: Take the time to grab adequate altitude. If you're flying a P-40E, the Zero is badly overmatched when faced with a higher P-40E. Likewise, the SBD is extremely dangerous if it has an altitude advantage. Zero drivers had better grab as much altitude as possible. Otherwise, they are at a major disadvantage.

My regards,

Widewing

brady · « **Reply #28 on:** February 18, 2003, 01:32:07 AM »

I had 6 kills and one deth(I was outnumbered) in my Zero today, granted 3 were bostons(they were singles one was a tag and flak finish), and I only flew for an hour, I saw Some large kill streaks landed by Zero's as well, I say we let this ride and see what hapens in the end.

ergRTC · « **Reply #29 on:** February 18, 2003, 08:54:45 AM »

were these 1 on 1 widewing?